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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 874 of 1163 (794349)
11-14-2016 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 873 by mindspawn
11-14-2016 5:49 PM


Re: Loony theory/Obvious theory
My point is that transition is obviously a reflection of a marine environment changing to a terrestrial one. Evolution is as evident in that particular order of fossils as it is when a pond is drying up and then only the frogs are left to enjoy the puddles. Later it dries up completely and a squirrel runs over the mud. Did the fish evolve into a squirrel. No, the squirrel came from a dry region and ran over the dried up surface.
My question is 'where were squirrels living for 200 million years, not detected in the fossil record'.
I'm assuming that, in your scenario, humans also lived in some isolated region for half a billion years before they actually appeared in the fossil record.
This seems rather dubious to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 873 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 5:49 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 876 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 6:12 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 877 of 1163 (794352)
11-14-2016 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 861 by mindspawn
11-14-2016 4:35 PM


Re: Loony theory/Obvious theory
The logic is actually straightforward, the link I provided shows that the landmass did dry.
Actually, the land mass was relatively more emergent 6 times in the last half billion years. We are currently in a periods of low sea levels.
Obviously we would then have amphibians and then land animals proliferating when they could not exist in that area before due to it being marine. Did they EVOLVE or did they simply come from another smaller place which was already dry? I maintain they came from the dry place and then spread out as earth's landmass grew, with some very clear minor adaptation also occurring, I do admit to that. Other than Darwin's reasonably convincing and well written book, the logic does not support evolving over radiating.
Why would the two be incompatible. Periods of flourishing diversity are often called 'radiations'.
There have always been 'dry places' in geological history. So, you are spinning a tale of a very special dry place that is different from any was know and isolated from the rest of the planet. Again, not likely, particularly in the cases of plants and humans.
What would really help you out here is having an actual sanctuary for humans since the beginning of life, that has remained undiscovered. I commend your imagination, but the facts do not support it. If you want to live in an imaginary world, that is fine with me. Lots of people do that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 861 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 4:35 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 879 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 6:21 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 878 of 1163 (794353)
11-14-2016 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 876 by mindspawn
11-14-2016 6:12 PM


Re: Humans don't like floods
It has often been mentioned in this thread how the environment before the PT boundary was susceptible to marine transgressions and regressions. Yes humans would not have lived there. They would have avoided it and stayed in a highlands region safe from flooding.
Actually, we are still susceptible to marine transgression. But I don't see why that would force humans to abandon living at low elevations. In fact, that goes against all history. People have always lived on sea shores.
There have been signs of human existence pre-boundary, unfortunately scientists do not rush off to analyse these out of place artifacts because their training assumes the evidence is a waste of time before any analysis.
Once again, you make an unsupported assertion. Just saying that something was so will not cut it around here.
Like I said in an earlier post, Miller proposed an "alpine biome" or a "boreal cradle" in the Cenozoic which sustained angiosperms.
This is standard evolutionary theory. It is logical that an isolated population can evolve away from its ancestral population.
There are fossil traces to support his assertion. It is in this environment that mammals and humans would have existed like today.
Again, make good on your evidence. People say a lot of things, but YECs seldom back them up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 6:12 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 880 of 1163 (794355)
11-14-2016 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 875 by mindspawn
11-14-2016 6:03 PM


Re: Evolutionary Assumptions
You may notice that all the evidence I quote from is written by evolutionists. Evolution is so blindly accepted as fact, ...
So say YECs.
... that they use evolutionary terms.
The point being?
I look past the evolutionary terminology at the actual facts presented.
But you don't even know what the facts are. You talk about species surviving for a billion years in an isolated state only to be released at some environmental change that has happened many times in the past. You have no example of such a sanctuary and you have no explanation of how multiple species could be released at several different times in the history of the earth.
Now you are talking about humans only living in high mountains until the P/T boundary.
This just isn't passing the giggle test.
So I would advise you do the same. Just because an article I quote uses evolutionary terms, does not mean it supports your view. Evidence is everything, evolutionary terms are mere assumption.
Terms are assumptions?
Sorry, but this was going on long before you came along. It's up to you to learn the science, not for it to adapt to you.
I mean, really, if an ocean bed dries up, during the transition phase we would have some kind of mudfish. Then amphibians. Then purely terrestrial. How does this prove evolution.
As usual, it's a little more complex than that. If you are only looking at a pond, perhaps your scenario might make sense. But in this case there is no data suggesting terrestrial animals anywhere prior to the Devonian. And there were plenty of land masses back then.
It doesn't even point slightly to evolution, Darwin just worded his observation very well, and tied it in to beak changes he observed in a finch. He didn't think that one through very well.
Base on your reasoning?
I suppose that you have some kind of qualifications or experience to be able to say such a thing? You have studied somewhere perhaps?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 875 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 6:03 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 883 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 6:44 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 881 of 1163 (794356)
11-14-2016 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 879 by mindspawn
11-14-2016 6:21 PM


Re: Siberia
I have already located the "sanctuary" , it is the Siberian Highlands. The Permian traps which most likely triggered the End Permian extinction covered a vast area in Siberia with lava. This is why there have been few pre-boundary fossils from that region, due to the difficulty in digging through that flood basalt.
Good, then show us your research. Are there human fossils or artifacts beneath the basalts?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 879 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 6:21 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 882 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 6:38 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 884 of 1163 (794359)
11-14-2016 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 882 by mindspawn
11-14-2016 6:38 PM


Re: Siberia
Well like I said, its difficult to dig down there. Unless a deep mine hits a good spot, we are unlikely to find anything.
How convenient for you. With that kind of thing going for you, we can safely say that ignorance of facts can be the basis of an explanation.
Evolution has millions of intermediates missing, to non-evolutionists the reasoning for those missing fossils is an excuse , not facing the facts.
But we have hundreds.
How many do you need?
You may feel the same about my reasoning, but even so I'm missing less fossils than you are.
Denial is not a substitute for facts.
Creationism is the better explanation for the rapid appearance of organisms, is more consistent with DNA observation, and has less missing fossils.
What 'rapid appearance'?
How does DNA support your position?
Saying that fossils do not exist is not the same as saying that some are missing. It would seem to me that only one transitional fossil would be suggestive of evolution. But we have hundreds, and more almost every day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 882 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 6:38 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 885 of 1163 (794360)
11-14-2016 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 883 by mindspawn
11-14-2016 6:44 PM


Re: Evolutionary Assumptions
I don't need to study to know that when the sea dries up, terrestrial animals will then dominate.
That notion exists in a vacuum. First of all there have always been dry lands.
Do I need a qualification for that reasoning?
When you lack the facts to support your position, yes.
So Darwin observed the change in fossil type. He surmised evolution in a convincing way. I am just saying there are other ways to interpret the actual data.
Certainly, if you ignore all of the surrounding data. Your ad hoc explanation does not take into account the effect of multiple marine transgressions for instance, and you contention that the first humans live exclusively in mountainous regions is utterly ridiculous thinking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 883 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 6:44 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 887 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 6:58 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 890 of 1163 (794366)
11-14-2016 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 886 by JonF
11-14-2016 6:58 PM


He thinks of transgression/recession cycles as happening over sufficiently short time as to be remembered in human/societal memory. They would stay up in the mountains because they knew it was fruitless to build where the sea would just take it.
Yes, I'm sure.
Nevertheless, my main point was that there have been parts or all of the Absaroka, Zuni and Tejas (major) cratonic cycles since the Permo-Triassic boundary. There have probably been dozens of minor ones.
There were also several such inundations prior to the P/Tr boundary.
To break down the boundary of these 'exclaves' in such an order that we see is pretty unbelievable, regardless of logic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 886 by JonF, posted 11-14-2016 6:58 PM JonF has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 891 of 1163 (794367)
11-14-2016 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 887 by mindspawn
11-14-2016 6:58 PM


Re: Evolutionary Assumptions
Just for the record, I didn't actually say mountains, there is a difference between highlands and mountains.
So, they were not very high highlands ...
Nevertheless, it is a pretty common observation that people lived near the sea since the earliest humans existed. Climate is moderated and food is more dependable.
My explanation does take into account multiple marine transgressions. That was central to my point, that the transgressions were more common back then, making it difficult for non-amphibuous organisms to survive on the land.
Actually, they were not more common. There was just a longer time period prior to the P/Tr boundary.
As for being ridiculous, that is opinion. When faced with flooding, I would choose highlands.
It is a supported opinion. I have explained why.
Your explanation falls flat, especially when there were numerous opportunities for emigration prior to and long after the P/Tr events, but it didn't happen until just a couple of million years ago.
So, all you have is "I choose highlands".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 887 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 6:58 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 892 of 1163 (794368)
11-14-2016 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 888 by mindspawn
11-14-2016 7:01 PM


Re: Timeframes
Exactly, my pre-flood timeframes are a little shorter than the Proterozoic-Paleozoic is supposed to be. (understatement- lol)
So, you admit that you ignore old earth evidence as well.
Do you realize that all you have told us is that you base your explanation on a lack of evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 888 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 7:01 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 896 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 7:24 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 894 of 1163 (794370)
11-14-2016 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 889 by jar
11-14-2016 7:03 PM


Re: Siberia
According to the Bible Creation week did not take place in Siberia.
So, there is another mass migration not in evidence.
Or in the Bible ...
ETA: So it appears that Noah lived in Siberia?
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 889 by jar, posted 11-14-2016 7:03 PM jar has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 897 of 1163 (794373)
11-14-2016 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 893 by mindspawn
11-14-2016 7:17 PM


Re: Siberia
Evolutionists are missing more fossils than creationists.
Well, that's easy. You simply deny them. The basis for your explanation is denial.
So if you cannot find the intermediate of the trilobite, you have no leg to stand on , because evolving of a trilobite from bacteria-like organisms is a silly notion to jump to after Darwin observed a finches beak.
But no ones says that a trilobite evolved form a bacterium.
Except YECs, of course. That would be called strawman argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 893 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 7:17 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 905 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 7:43 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 898 of 1163 (794374)
11-14-2016 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 896 by mindspawn
11-14-2016 7:24 PM


Re: Timeframes
Anyone can look up OOPARTS and decide which of those out of place artifacts are convincing and which are hoaxes. I wont post them as evidence on this more scientific site, but I do believe there are signs of pre-flood humans.
If you want to bring up examples that would be good. We could have an actual discussion rather than you just asserting supposed facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 896 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 7:24 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 901 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 7:30 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 900 of 1163 (794376)
11-14-2016 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 899 by mindspawn
11-14-2016 7:26 PM


Re: Loony theory/Obvious theory
I was called loony by someone on this thread. I responded to that.
Well, you ideas are certainly loony.
What do you think of the theory that Noah launched the ark from New Jersey?
I mean, it really makes sense because of the pine barrens, where Noah could have gotten the pitch to seal the ark. Doesn't that make sense to you?
ETA: Hey, there are lots of pine trees in Siberia. And they aren't even angiosperms...
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 899 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 7:26 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 902 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 7:32 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 903 of 1163 (794379)
11-14-2016 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 901 by mindspawn
11-14-2016 7:30 PM


Re: Artifacts
I am not asserting any facts or supposed facts. Historians could have had endless arguments over whether Troy was a real story or not. Until they found the city. Sometimes one does not use science, but instead looks at claimed evidence and decides whether it rings true or not. That is not science nor scientific procedure, and I do not claim OOPARTS are science, or evidence, or facts.
Well, we've been asking for evidence. Does this mean that you have no intention of providing it?
They are interesting claims, some of which are convincing to me, and I'm sure others would agree. But that is not evidence and so I will not post them as evidence.
Are you a conspiracy theorist also?
ETA: By the way, I have no problem with people using stories and imagination to contrive and idea that they will resolve by testing. That can easily be a part of science. The problem I have is when they accept those stories without question.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 901 by mindspawn, posted 11-14-2016 7:30 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
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