The 2016 United States Presidential Election

Yes, that's what I was trying to bring attention to.Pre-WWII German history is frightening for its implications about what can be made to seem "normal". It is remarkable how quickly the German people adjusted to life with Hitler's atrocities. For example, German courts had little problem conforming their rulings to Nazi realities after the Night of the Long Knives (a 1934 Nazi purge that murdered hundreds). We should ask ourselves certain questions now while they're still hypothetical: Would we speak out against laws restricting the rights of Muslims or illegal aliens. Would we have the courage to hide them in our homes while the police are breaking down doors?--Percy

Yes, this captures the kinds of things I was alluding to.If I could comment on a few recent rather wild messages that have been posted, I don't see any sense in scapegoating the right or the left, and I am not blaming the right. Republican successes and the election of Trump are expressions of social, economic and political forces within the country, not their cause, just as was the success of the Nazi party within Germany in the 1932 elections that resulted in the compromise appointment of Hitler as Chancellor. There are no jackbooted goosestepping storm troopers in our streets, but that's not the point. The point isn't that we *are* the Germany of the 1930's but that we're exposed to forces similar to the ones that led Germany down a road to ultimate annihilation. Democracies in Europe face similar problems.Trump does play an active role in promoting the comparison to pre-WWII Germany and Hitler. Saying things such as threatening to arrest your political opponent will do that. If one were to ask oneself which president of the past 220 years would be most likely to declare martial law and eventually give himself dictatorial powers, which one would it be? Jimmy Carter, right? Just kidding. It's Trump, of course.--Percy

If Trump really has knowledge that voter fraud was committed by Democrats on a massive scale, why has he mounted a legal challenge to the recount efforts in Michigan?That question is actually just a statement of what we already know: that Trump frequently makes completely false claims, including ones he knows are false. He just can't seem to help himself. He has a finely honed instinct for what his followers want to hear, and if they want to hear it then he enthusiastically and confidently says it, true or not. If he really knew the Democrats had committed massive voter fraud in Michigan he would be vigorously supporting the recount effort.--Percy

I think Faith was trying to say that pre-WWII German authorities concocted stories of Jews working against the best interests of the state, in the end falsely holding Jews responsible for a host of German ills. She was contrasting it to our current situation where we can trust that everything Trump and the alt-media say about immigrants and Muslims is true, and thank God we have Faith's assurances that there's no racism or bias involved in scapegoating entire classes or races of people.More seriously, your endorsement of vetting is the right encouragement, but for too many people the attraction of what they already believe is too powerful for any evidence.--Percy

Not sure what point you're making, but I did wonder about this:

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I routinely encounter people in possession of voter registration cards"

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Voter registration cards? We don't have them in New Hampshire. Do many states have them? Just what I need, another card to stuff in my wallet.I recently discovered that there's something called, I think, an enhanced driver's license. The holder told me it allows him to cross between the US, Canada and Mexico without a passport. I'm guessing that they record the passage between countries by computer and so do not need a passport to stamp. I like the idea of consolidating passport and driver's license into a single ID.--Percy

I, too, am with Faith and I think most other people on this one, but the unfortunate hotel owner is not the point here. Faith offered him as evidence of what is happening in Europe: But this isn't what is happening in Europe.I think everyone on both sides of the political fence is against shoving people off their property to make way for refugees, but it's a big world out there and one can always find examples of the unfair, the arbitrary, the wrong. There's a big difference between trends and policies on the one hand and one-time unusual events on the other.--Percy

Thought you would never see a George Orwell line come to life? Think again. This is Trump supporter Scottie Nell Hughes speaking on the Diane Rehm Show:

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One thing that has been interesting this entire campaign season to watch is that people that say facts are facts; they’re not really facts. Everybody has a way, it’s kind of like looking at ratings or looking at a glass of half-full water. Everybody has a way of interpreting them to be the truth or not true...There’s no such thing, unfortunately, anymore of facts.

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The most recent example that comes to mind of a Trump "fact" is that he'd been planning the phone call to the Taiwan president for some time. The man doesn't even know what he's going to say five minutes from now, let alone months ahead.And apparently the Trump camp still hasn't given up on arresting those they disagree with. Trump's former campaign manager Corey Lewandowski threatened New York Times executive editor Dean Baquet by declaring "He should be in jail" just for stating that he'd be willing to go to jail to get a copy of Trump's taxes. Which Trump still hasn't released and probably never will.For every man who warned of the true implications of Hitler's rise to power in Germany there were a hundred others who dismissed the warnings, who believed democracy had become enshrined in the western world, who thought no one could want war again after WWI, who asserted that outside influences would diminish Hitler's impact, who claimed Hitler was too outlandish for his talk to be believed, who thought he would make obvious missteps and lose power. The lesson is to not underestimate the maniacal and powermad.These are dark times. We can't just watch on warily. We must oppose the descent into darkness at every turn.--Percy

Since it's not really the topic, and given the season, perhaps those who cannot be charitable toward their fellow man or fellow religions or fellow anyone or anything could find somewhere else to post such things for a few weeks. Maybe in a thread titled "Hate". Maybe their blog. They could even become genuinely inactive, instead of being false about it.--Percy

It would take the ability to cast a critical eye on all information and to weave legitimate information into a coherent and consistent whole.--Percy

I've never understood the objection. Naturally born US citizenship includes both by parentage and by place of birth, so even if Barak Obama had no Hawaiin birth certificate and had instead been born in Kenya he would still be a naturally born US citizen because his mother was a US citizen. Ted Cruz, born in Canada, is a naturally born US citizen for the same reason.--Percy

Adminnemooseus's Message 737 in full: Discussion about Obama's place of birth could transition over to The Brand New Birther Thread. It's not "brand new" anymore, but at least it's on-topic.--Percy

Detailed report from the New York Times: --Percy

Can we now put to bed the ridiculous claim that Hillary Clinton was the candidate more likely to escalate tensions and cause war? Today's Washington Post describes Trump's threat to begin a new nuclear arms race: A tense new battle over nuclear arms erupts between Donald Trump and his staffAnd here the New York Times describes Trump's desire to expand Israeli West Bank settlements, escalating tensions between Israelis and Palestinians: Trump Pressures Obama Over U.N. Resolution on Israeli SettlementsIf Trump's actual message is, "I'm crazy so everybody better back off," I think he's convinced everyone of the first part. What we've got here is four years of The Apprentice writ large, with the world playing the role of apprentice.--Percy

From the LA Times: Americans who voted against Trump are feeling unprecedented dread and despair. I think this article pretty well sums up how those of us who voted against Trump feel, and why we're right in feeling this way. Some excerpts:

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People are mourning because the fate of their country will now be in the hands of an intellectually disinterested, reckless, mendacious narcissist.
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In a series of tweets the day after the election, Frum predicted that Trump will engage in massive self-enrichment and, once the media and Democrats begin investigating and criticizing his actions, he will retaliate by means fair or foul, utilizing the powers of the presidency and aided and abetted by a compliant Republican Congress.

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Construction of the apparatus of revenge and repression will begin opportunistically and haphazardly, Frum wrote. It will accelerate methodically.

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No one certainly no Republican contemplated such a scenario when Reagan was elected, or when George H.W. Bush or his son took office. Nobody thought a victory by Sen. John McCain in 2008 or Mitt Romney in 2012 would have threatened democracy. This time that concern is widespread and far from irrational, given Trump’s words, actions and erratic, bullying temperament.
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It is ordinary Americans of all classes and races who fear that, under Trump, environmental protections will be dismantled, limits on Wall Street greed will be removed, the rights of minorities and women will be undermined and American foreign policy will be run by dangerously unseasoned amateurs with a crush on Vladimir Putin. Such fears are not based on feelings or fake news stories; they are confirmed by the composition of Trump’s Cabinet.

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--PercyEdited by Percy, : Fix link.

Oops! Link fixed. That message still got two votes - apparently iOS statistics are popular. --Percy