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Author | Topic: Science proves that the tomb of Jesus (Christ ?)and James the Just have been found. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Of course it was. Science was never meant to replace belief. What you really mean is that believers don't like it when science overturns their beliefs.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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frako writes:
It would have to be an Immaculate Ovum.
All we need is a healthy ovum and we can grow our own jesus christ!!!
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
vimesey writes:
Are you using the common and incorrect interpretation of "immaculate"?
ringo writes:
Not necessarily - Mary's could have been a perfectly ordinary ovum, and God just used IVF. It would have to be an Immaculate Ovum.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why is it that believers are skeptical about evidence but not about unevidenced beliefs?
Im not sure I believe any of this.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Yes, that's the mantra. The evidence for evolution isn't "conclusive" either, if you insist on believing in creationism. The point is that it IS evidence, as opposed to NO evidence for your belief.
This so called evidence is far from conclusive. Phat writes:
What else could "help" them? What gets me is how much some people want to jump at evidence as if it could tell them anything that could actually help them. Seriously. Have you ever heard of disease? Have you ever heard of cures for disease? Don't you think curing diseases "helps" people? How do you think diseases are cured without "jumping at evidence"?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're projecting. YOU wouldn't get bent out of shape if somebody suggested that George Washington mistreated his slaves, would you? You'd want to know the truth, wouldn't you? So why do YOU get bent out of shape if people want to know the truth about Jesus?
I cannot speak for all believers of course but one reason may be that some of us do not trust the motivation of those who go out of their way to gather evidence against the plausibility of Jesus existing, for example. They never get this bent out of shape over other historical and/or mythological characters. Phat writes:
What's ironic is that "believing Christians" are the ones who want to throw the message away if the messenger doesn't measure up to their expectations. It is ironic that an agnostic can defend the Christian position better than believing Christians can! Suppose your postman was cheating on his wife. Would you tear up the cheque he brings?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The question remains: What would you do with the cheque?
Metaphorically speaking, I would be the postman's wife whom he was cheating on, in which case I dunno what I would do!
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So why is the messenger Jesus different? Why do you care about his morality? Why do you throw his cheques away? Or why do you throw his bills away? Why is that messenger more important than his message?
I would cash it of course. The morality of that particular messenger does not concern me so much as his ability to do his job well, which is to bring me my cheques.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Nonsense. I don't believe Jesus is real and it's for the same reason I don't believe leprechauns are real. I don't go out of my way to discredit anything and it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if Jesus and/or leprechauns were real.
These debunkers have a major ax to grind and are not at all interested in Jesus being real--they go out of their way to disprove and discredit the stories. Phat writes:
Nonsense. I was raised Christian. Almost everybody I know is a Christian. My life would be simpler if I could believe.
Granted they have an evidenced and persuasive argument---but only persuasive to those predisposed to finding an excuse why Christianity, as marketed, is bunk. Phat writes:
So you're not interested in the truth at all. You just want to go on deluding yourself.
I want and need a God Who is on my side...not an expose of how religions have manipulated and controlled a world for ages.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You answered your own question. I don't like the idea of a "foregone conclusion". If you had been raised in a different culture your "foregone conclusion" would have been a lot different. If there are different "foregone conclusions" about the same thing, some or all of them must be wrong. What made you search for further truth? And what is it that caused you to question what so many others see as a foregone conclusion? The real question is: Why wouldn't you set your culture's "foregone conclusion" aside and search for further truth?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Yes. I trust my mind, but I also trust my heart and my intuition. Critics may say I am biased as to what I will find. Are they right? Anybody can be biased. That's why we invented objectivity. If you're interested in "truth" at all, you have to listen when people point out your biases, not take it as an insult.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
kbertsche writes:
They were products of their societies. They were probably racists and sexists and royalists too. And they were not infallible in any of their conclusions.
You do realize, don't you, that most of the developers of modern science were strong religious believers?(Egs. Galileo, Kepler, Bacon, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Maxwell, ...)
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
kbertsche writes:
Your own quote doesn't show that it's wrong.
It is natural to expect that the religious leanings of the early scientists was simply a reflection of their society. But this is wrong.As historian of science Ian Barbour wrote....
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
kbertsche writes:
Your quote doesn't say anything of the kind. It says that a disproportionate number of scientists were Puritans. The others were also, presumably, professing Christians. No doubt the Arab scientists of the time were professing Muslims and the Chinese scientists of the time were professing Taoists, Buddhists, etc. They were all a product of their cultures. As Barbour shows, the 17th century English scientists were much MORE religious than their society. How would you measure "how religious" they were anyway?
Newton writes:
Newton, for example, wasn't a Puritan, was he? So your quote doesn't apply to him. Religiously, he was a bit of a nut, so he isn't much of an example.
Newton, for example....
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
kbertsche writes:
I asked how you would measure "how religious" somebody was. On what basis do you conclude that the scientists were "more active" than average? If you think that this was simply a reflection of society, you must believe that in society at large, most people were ACTIVE churchmen? And what bearing does that have on anything anyway?
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