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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Totalitarian Leftist Tactics against the Right | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
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I don't recall any discussion by the Founders of competing freedoms. You don't believe that different freedoms interfere with each other? You have to be told that such a concept is reality? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Oh, here's another one: I'm not saying that an individual can be totalitarian like a government can, I'm saying that they can have tendencies to prefer governments that have total control - that is, their mentality is one of a totalitarian nature. So, yeah, totalitarian is a bit of a joke in that it's hyperbolic, but it does look like the shoe fits so I see where people are coming from. I thought it would be interesting to explore the thoughts that lead to this kind of stuff, but we got too hung up on the verbiage to get anywhere. In short, insisting on your rights, or even preferring a constitution that has federally enforced rights is totalitarian, hyperbolically speaking. On the other hand dictating to folks by government officials, like for example school administrators is just fine. Because... why exactly? Well because you are okay with that. How about we keep the totalitarian government, state or otherwise, out of the bathroom absent some problem that needs a solution. That's exactly what the guidelines to Title IX were meant to accomplish. Apparently there is no real defense for bathroom laws like HB2, because attempts to defend them are easily seen through crap. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
And yes there is no conflict between rights and freedoms that the Founders had any inkling of, The founding fathers were not this stupid, Faith. Do you think that the first amendment would ever have allowed Puritans to torment Quakers or vice versa just because their religious beliefs allowed such? Your argument is moronic. Here are some helpful, if not obvious words from Thomas Jefferson
quote: Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
not interested in this anymore...
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
You continue to mix these up - they are quite different things. SCOTUS did not 'pretend' to be Congress. They did not enact any laws. It was the State legislatures that enacted the laws that private business owners are subject to, and have been penalized under. While your statements are correct, I think the state laws are a natural, and easily forseeable outgrowth of the Supreme Court's ruling that there was no rational basis for the state to disallow same sex marriage. I completely understand, although I do not sympathize with, complaints that religious sensibilities were affected by the Supreme Court's ruling. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I'd say the bottom line remains no matter what else you bring to the mix: The First Amendment guarantees freedom of religion and forbids prohibiting its "free exercise." Yes by a law made in the legislature but I think that is being misused in this context to allow its prohibition by hook or by crook. Isn't it just a little inconsistent to agree that the First Amendment is not a restriction on Congress alone when discussing the Free Expression Clause, but to deny that same principle when you are complaining about state school officials being subject to the first amendment. I doubt that you would want the first amendment application to free speech, freedom of assembly, or religion to be limited to prohibition on what Congress can do. But maybe I am wrong. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Since this was a State's decision - this should be acknowledged. Obviously we should stick with the truth, but I suspect that even Oregon would argue that their laws were supported by the 14th amendment. In my opinion, anti-discrimination laws that are not well grounded in constitutional principles can be suspect, because state laws cannot trump the constitution. An Oregon law that prevented discrimination against democrats probably would not survive court review if it interfered with a first amendment right.
This extends to the Federal/State Totalitarian argument. Since this was a State's decision I suppose so. But that federal/state argument is ridiculous anyway. And beyond that, despite NCE's statement that any discrimination ought not to be challenged beyond the state level, it seems that he would find appealing to the state to be just a little less totalitarian that suing in federal court. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
So there isn't anything you could find from the era of the Founders that recognizes a need to limit any Bible based denomination So the Puritans did not practice a Bible based denomination? Your argument does not hold water. Beyond that, your argument is utterly inconsistent with the writings of Thomas Jefferson.
Simply practicing what the Bible teaches doesn't lead to persecuting anyone, and that's what I meant by religious freedom. Folks who called themselves believers in the Bible have persecuted folks and justified their persecution on the Bible just as you have done here. Your statement is meaning-free. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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You do realize that Catholics complained about schools using the Protestant KJV in 1890. I think Mormons were complaining around then too. My understanding is that the Catholic school system was a reaction to the Protestant controlled schools forcing Protestant practices on Catholic kids. Excellent job of actually citing the law and real history in the face of unsupportable statements about what the early constitution allowed. Let me continue this line of argument. If you want to cite a directly germane early Supreme Court decision, I think the most relevant would be Reynolds v. United States decided in 1878.
quote:[1] Like it or not, this was the state of constitutional law in 1878 as well as now. The principle in question is not some new invention by the left or by liberal, activist, judges. Further, the decision is backed by the statement of at least one Founding Father:
quote:[2] And of course, the principle that Thomas Jefferson warned about is exactly the principle that Faith espouses here. Namely that her religious beliefs should allow her to take actions with impunity. Well, fortunately, that canard was never enshrined in the constitution. Small wonder it is being given short shrift here.
[1]Reynolds v. United States (1879) - Bill of Rights Institute
[2]Reynolds v. United States - Wikipedia Edited by NoNukes, : Tweak punctuation and correct one word. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
In other news Trump makes moves in the opposite direction by issuing an executive order targeting an Obama rule intended to protect LGBT and other minorities.
quote: Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
That strips away the right of any municipality to enact laws protecting LBGT people from discrimination. The sole motivation for this supposed repeal is to convince the NCAA to resume holding events in North Carolina. The NCAA is holding scheduling meetings on April 18 at which they will decide event sites for the next several year. I believe that the North Carolina legislature has miscalculated. Even if they pass this supposed repeal, they may not agree that it is a real repeal or that it addresses LGBT concerns. And even if events are initially scheduled in NC, public pressure could easily result in those events being pulled again. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
When I said action based on belief also must be allowed I certainly did not mean anything illegal or dangerous, the point was that Christian action is none of those things, it's completely benign. As I have demonstrated using references and a Supreme Court decision dating from 1878, the idea that actions contrary to law must be allowed has never been the correct interpretation of the First Amendment. Your saying so, over and over, does not advance your argument. Beyond that, it is easy to show with historical actions that the actions of Christians based on their beliefs have not always been benign. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The context was the Jefferson quote. The context for your remark was a portion of the Jefferson quote, and in picking that out, you missed the thrust of the quote which was that we don't allow small deviations from the law because that invites the larger. Beyond that, your proposed actions towards gay folks, and I say proposed because you don't actually own a bakery, are not harmless, and they are certainly illegal. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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As I keep saying, there has never been a conflict between Christian practice -- not some crazy Christians acting on their own misunderstandings but CHRISTIAN PRACTICE -- until the gay marriage law. Except that one man's misunderstanding is another man's complete Bible belief it appears. Well except in your case where you claim to be unerring and infallible at determining God's will. Professing your belief as the only real one is not an argument. It's just preaching. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Scary to think that we could have a Leftist coup, the overthrow of a legitimately elected President, against the will of half the voting population, based on absolutely nothing. Impeachment requires that the majority of the House agree to articles of impeachment followed by two-thirds of the Senate voting to dismiss the president. Neither conservatives nor liberals can achieve this by themselves. No chance of either happening regardless of how legitimate the concerns are. But the democrats cannot get rid of Trump without substantial help from the right.
t. There is ZERO evidence of ANY kind of "Russian collusion" We don't know that there has no collusion. That's what the investigation is about. What we do know is that some members of the administration have claimed to have had zero contact with Russia only to later have to admit that their statements were untrue, but only after getting caught in a lie. Now you might think that getting caught in such lies is no reason to investigate, but reasonable people might well disagree.
And conservatives for the most part are too truly American to do anything as underhanded as the Left is doing even though that's probably the only way they could be stopped. Do you seriously not recall the many investigations of president Clinton? Are you unaware that President Clinton is one of two presidents to be impeached but not convicted in the Senate? All of this despite the fact that Clinton was elected twice? Your claims here do not survive even the slightest scrutiny. Conservatives do not have the high road here. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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