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Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
OK RAZD, I've come to this forum. Would you like to give me a summary of the arguments to date? Arguments against the evidence I present here? Okay: ineffectual and incomplete, none explain the correlations. Please start with Message 2, Bristlecone Pines, and see what you can accomplish.
quote: Note there were also pieces of dead wood used in the chronology that were found lying on the ground, wood that should have floated off in a flood. Note there is no correlation here yet, this is the first set of data showing an earth older that YEC claims. The correlation start with the next post Message 3. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : wood that would float ... Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : linkby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Why would they all be dead if they were covered with water they don't have the breath of life in them? Just wondering. Trees breath, they take in C02 and exhale oxygen, and most trees drown if covered by flood water for 100+ days. Flood tolerant trees can be found growing on floodplains, but they have leaves above those periodic floods that create the floodplains, and are only tolerant for water over the roots. See willows. Bristlecone Pines are not flood tolerant.
Message 495: Is there any spot on earth that has not been covered with water at one time? This is an issue for another thread: see Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood? See Message 189 where I've copied\moved this discussion for further discussion. This thread is about discussing the methods used to measure age, any perceived problems with them, and with the correlations between the methods. With Message 3 you are running into the first correlation, the one between the Bristlecone Pines and the European Oaks, correlations such as the 14C/12C levels being the same in the tree rings for the same year count for two different dendrochronologies from opposite sides of the earth, one pines high on a mountain and one oaks living on floodplains. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : moved to another threadby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: Uh huh. Well, so are some who do understand it. That wouldn't even work in 2nd grade.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
OK RAZD, I've come to this forum. Would you like to give me a summary of the arguments to date? In Message 496 I gave you a brief summary for the Bristlecone Pine data from Message 2. Here is the same summary for European Oaks from Message 3:
quote: So we have three dendrochronologies that agree within 0.5% after 8,000 years of tree rings. How is such accuracy obtained if there are any problems with the dendrochronology process? Note that the dendrochronologies were matched not just on climate data (ring widths) but on the level of 14C/12 existing in the rings (not "14C Age"). This correlation is discussed in greater detail in Message 4: Adding German Pines to the Mix. I'll have more to add when we get to that, as there is an update to the data that extends it. You may also want to read Message 20 and Message 109 Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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CRR Member (Idle past 2271 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Bristlecone pines (BCP) are possibly the oldest trees on Earth, with he oldest living specimen of bristlecone pine reputed to be approximately 4,900 years old. However the largest BCP, the Patriarch tree is estimated to be a mere 1500 years old. The "oldest" trees come from extreme environments with short cool summers with a growing season thought to be only several weeks long, desert-like aridity (250 mm of precipitation per year, mostly as snow), and strong winds coupled with air that in the summer is said to be the driest on earth, and the rocky ‘soil’ (where there is any ’soil’), means that what little rain does fall will evaporate or drain away quickly. Many trees grow out of little more than cracks in dolomitic rocks.
Trees in such stressed conditions are known to form additional rings. Sometimes these can be identified as such but where rings are thin, as in these BCPs , they are often indistinguishable from annual rings. Glock et al. demonstrated that in dry climates, not only are ‘false’ rings common in many species, but the bands of ‘false’ dark-wood can have outer boundaries that are every bit as distinct as the outer boundaries of a true annual ring. They found that multiplicity was more than twice as common as annularity, and conclude that probably very few annual increments, over the entire tree, consist of only one growth layer. However BCP's growing nearby but where moisture conditions are better, as in valley areas where a decent soil can accumulate, do not reach the ancient ‘ages’, ‘No old bristlecone pines are found in the valley bottom, which is a sheltered area with deep colluvial soil and gentle surface slope.’ Researchers have found that in the central area of a stand of BCP trees, where growing conditions are the best, the trees do not have more than several hundred rings. But at the margins of the stand, where the soil thins and growing conditions become progressively poorer, the trees with the most rings are found. It seems more probable that all the trees in the stand are about the same age, but that the trees growing at the margins are starved for water and grow multiple rings to conserve water. So although some researchers do consider each ring as an annual ring there is good evidence for a significant number as being false rings. Biblical dating would put the flood at ~2349BC., or ~4350 before present. 11% false rings would put the age as less than the time to the flood. 25% would put starting date after the post flood ice age. If Glock et al. are correct in their estimates of the frequencey of false rings the trees could be much younger. Source: Evidence for multiple ring growth per year in Bristlecone Pines - creation.com Edited by CRR, : Source added.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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Trees in such stressed conditions are known to form additional rings. Sometimes these can be identified as such but where rings are thin, as in these BCPs , they are often indistinguishable from annual rings. Glock et al. demonstrated that in dry climates, not only are ‘false’ rings common in many species, but the bands of ‘false’ dark-wood can have outer boundaries that are every bit as distinct as the outer boundaries of a true annual ring. They found that multiplicity was more than twice as common as annularity, and conclude that probably very few annual increments, over the entire tree, consist of only one growth layer(bold added for emphasis)
If Glock actually said this, why does his colleague say the following:
quote: That's kind of weird, eh? Actually, you are citing a secondary reference called NephiCode, a Christian blog site: NephiCode Think they have an agenda? If you have direct information that Glock actually said what they report, please document. As it turns out the original article by Glock is:
quote: Get the difference: This refers to branches of trees.
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CRR Member (Idle past 2271 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Classification and multiplicity of growth layers in the branches of trees: At the extreme lower forest border (Smithsonian miscellaneous collections) Paperback — 1960 by Waldo S Glock (Author) https://www.amazon.com/...owth-layers-branches/dp/B0007DTO02 Top Customer Reviews4.0 out of 5 starsAmazing summary of research into sub-annual ring-growth patterns ByDavid M. Barkeron October 3, 2013 Format: Paperback|Verified Purchase So often we hear of "annual tree-rings" yet few people are aware of sub-annual rings, and multiple rings. This is a scholarly research report of experiments and studies showing that under some circumstances trees can and do grow more than one ring within a year. Profound! [edit] So far I haven't been able to access a copy. Do you have a link I could use or perhaps I could borrow yours. Edited by CRR, : as marked
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Thank you CRR for another example of creationist deceit.
This is one large cut and paste and not your words, right? I'll forgive you for thinking this is a good piece of information ... it isn't.
Trees in such stressed conditions are known to form additional rings. Sometimes these can be identified as such but where rings are thin, as in these BCPs , they are often indistinguishable from annual rings. Glock et al. demonstrated that in dry climates, not only are ‘false’ rings common in many species, but the bands of ‘false’ dark-wood can have outer boundaries that are every bit as distinct as the outer boundaries of a true annual ring. They found that multiplicity was more than twice as common as annularity, and conclude that probably very few annual increments, over the entire tree, consist of only one growth layer. "Common in many species ... They found that multiplicity was more than twice as common as annularity, ..." ... meaning that they were able to discern multiple rings in other species. With the techniques used by dendrochronologists to remove potential errors. Using trees susceptible to multiple rings. In 2007 I dealt with a similar paper by Don Batten, see Dendrochronology Fact and Creationist Fraud.
So although some researchers do consider each ring as an annual ring there is good evidence for a significant number as being false rings. Biblical dating would put the flood at ~2349BC., or ~4350 before present. 11% false rings would put the age as less than the time to the flood. 25% would put starting date after the post flood ice age. If Glock et al. are correct in their estimates of the frequencey of false rings the trees could be much younger. Someone is lying to you, either Glock or (more likely) someone misrepresenting him. How do I know? Because there is more actual data that validates the Bristlecone Pine ages. See the new version of this thread, currently in development, The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1), and Dendrochronology Basics, Message 9:
quote: In The Bristlecone Pine Chronologies, Message 10, there is some updated information:
quote: Do you understand what this means regarding your paper? They say:
Researchers have found that in the central area of a stand of BCP trees, where growing conditions are the best, the trees do not have more than several hundred rings. But at the margins of the stand, where the soil thins and growing conditions become progressively poorer, the trees with the most rings are found. It seems more probable that all the trees in the stand are about the same age, but that the trees growing at the margins are starved for water and grow multiple rings to conserve water. So the pattern with extra rings they propose should result in no consistent match between the two chronologies because they grew in different areas and should have been affected differently -- by their own words. I think that should be enough to put "bogus" on your article, but there is more:
quote: And I'm not done yet ... Accuracy and Precision in Dendrochronologies Compared to Historical Events, Message 16 in the new thread version:
quote: Note that is 100% accurate at 200 years, 200 years with no "Glock effect" showing up. But your biggest challenge will come after you deal with the oak chronologies, Message 3 on this thread and Message 13 through Message 16 on the new thread. At that point the relevance of Glock's paper will be moot. Again the issue is not the particular accuracy of the particular method or set of evidence, but the correlations between different sets of data and different methods that are consilient -- why do they get the same results? You've got some reading to do. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : .. Edited by RAZD, : correlationsby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Top Customer Reviews
So, now we are back to using book reviews as evidence for the validity of YEC "science"?4.0 out of 5 starsAmazing summary of research into sub-annual ring-growth patterns ByDavid M. Barkeron October 3, 2013 Format: Paperback|Verified Purchase So often we hear of "annual tree-rings" yet few people are aware of sub-annual rings, and multiple rings. This is a scholarly research report of experiments and studies showing that under some circumstances trees can and do grow more than one ring within a year. Profound! Do you realize that David Barker is not a scientist of any kind? Do you realize that the only books he heartily recommends are ones that espouse or (in his own opinion) support non-mainstream science? Why do you think that is the case?
[edit] So far I haven't been able to access a copy. Do you have a link I could use or perhaps I could borrow yours.
I do not have a copy. I can tell from the title that it may not be relevant to bristlecone pine dendrochronology. Do you understand why? However, I'm pretty sure that Glock is a legit mainstream scientist. Your spin on the data comes from the site that quoted him. That is why we do not trust secondary sources. Edited by edge, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I do not have a copy. I can tell from the title that it may not be relevant to bristlecone pine dendrochronology. Do you understand why? Might be interesting to check it out at the library, rather than spending money on it. I live in a small town but the libraries are linked throughout the state and you can get books from any of them.
However, I'm pretty sure that Glock is a legit mainstream scientist. Your spin on the data comes from the site that quoted him. That is why we do not trust secondary sources. By the time we get through with the European Oaks (Message 3) the issue of multiple rings in Bristlecone Pines will be moot -- they show that the Bristlecone Pines must be missing rings because they are ~37 years shy at 8000 years of common data. That's a 0.5% error and the other way from their proposed/assumed/wished 11% error (that was calculated to fit made up "biblical times"). Also see Message 503, and as always ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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By the time we get through with the European Oaks (Message 3) the issue of multiple rings in Bristlecone Pines will be moot -- they show that the Bristlecone Pines must be missing rings because they are ~37 years shy at 8000 years of common data. That's a 0.5% error and the other way from their proposed/assumed/wished 11% error (that was calculated to fit made up "biblical times").
Yah, I'd say it's not really a burning question and I don't really want to pursue it. As far as Glock goes, he is cited by Ferguson (1969) several times and since they are/were contemporaries I would assume that they worked together at some point. Here is the reference to Ferguson:https://arizona.openrepository.com/...b-29-03-04-003-029.pdf ... where he says on page 6:
quote: And when you look at the title of Glock's primary article, it refers to tree branches rather than trunks, and I don't think that many studies rely on branch data. The fact that there is little further discussion in the literature tells me that there isn't really a conflict; except, of course, in the minds of ardent YECs grasping for an argument. That is where this NephiCode stuff comes into play. It looked to me like CRR had cut and pasted directly from that blog. Ah, well, dead horse ...
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
OK RAZD, I've come to this forum. Would you like to give me a summary of the arguments to date? You might also want to check out old Great Debates on this topic:
Age of the Earth in Stages, Great Debate, S1WC and RAZD onlyGreat debate: radiocarbon dating, Mindspawn and Coyote/RAZD Both discontinued by other participant dropping out Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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CRR writes: Bristlecone pines (BCP) are possibly the oldest trees on Earth, with he oldest living specimen of bristlecone pine reputed to be approximately 4,900 years old. . . As RAZD has stated many times, it is the consilience between data sets that demonstrates their accuracy. What you need to explain is how the Bristlecone Pine data in North American correlates with the Oak data from Europe. If local changes cause multiple rings or lack of rings, then how is it that a different species half way across the globe produces the same data? On top of that, you also need to explain how the tree ring data also correlates with lake varves, corals, ice layers, and speleothems.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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On top of that, you also need to explain how the tree ring data also correlates with lake varves, corals, ice layers, and speleothems. Plus Carbon 14 data.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Plus EVERY other method of testing developed so far.
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