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Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
marc9000 writes: Do you believe that humans, at any time in the future, are CAPABLE of understanding the endlessness of space, as one example? Can you define what quantity of knowledge that is? In order to be able to ascertain what proportion humans will eventually be able to understand, don't you need to know that? Quantity? What does that mean, ... Oh for goodness sake, you can't even keep track of your own argument. You said:
Message 515: If we were to ask a science guy like Bill Nye what percentage of reality can humans not be capable of understanding versus what we can understand, he'd probably say we can understand...80 to 90% of all of reality. ... Let's put that in a formula to see the silliness of this statement: what is the proportion of
knowledge humans are capable of learning knowing all about reality, life, the universe, everything SO I was asking you to define the denominator ... because you were being silly.
So your question was silly. There's nothing silly about questioning the wisdom of fitting all of reality into what might be a very limited re-arrangement realm. ... That wasn't your silly question. Changing goal posts?
I'd like to know how space can be endless. ... The typical physics description is "finite but unbounded", and neither of those are "endless" - an analogy might help A Mbius strip is a finite object, but has one side and one edge, topologically it is unbounded, you can travel parallel to the edge without limit, without reaching an end.
A Klein Bottle adds another dimension and no longer has an edge
It is theoretical (although I have a knitted hat in this shape) because of the intersection where it goes through itself. (technically the moebius strip is also theoretical because you can't make one without thickness). Topologically it's surface is also finite but unbounded. Some people do have endless fun with them ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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The irony ... it burns ...
Riiiight.... that's why nobody has ever been convicted of murder. I don't believe court systems absolutely prove things, they just come to the best conclusion they can based on the information they have. Worldviews aren't involved to the same extent. You just described science ... it doesn't "absolutely prove things," it just comes to the best conclusion it can based on the information it has. And it does reach conclusions that are demonstrably valid beyond reasonable doubt, such as that the earth is very, very, very old, based on even more evidence than is posted in this thread. Conclusions we can have high confidence in being valid because of the preponderance of evidence. Especially when those conclusions are backed up by several different systems of investigation, using different methodologies, but reaching the same conclusions. Tree rings and lake and marine varves agreeing to remarkable degree of precision and accuracy not just on age but on 14C content and then agreeing with ice cores not just on volcanic events but on climate variations. Explaining results as errors in one system with some made up cockamamie creationist conception does not explain the consilience with the same results from other systems, and explaining results as errors in another system with some other made up cockamamie creationist conception does not explain the consilience with the same results from other systems, and this inability to explain the congruence and consilience in results is why cockamamie creationist conceptions have failed to explain reality in a way that incorporates ALL the objective empirical facts/evidence. ... ... while science consistently shows an old age for the earth that is beyond reasonable doubt. Why does the wiggle pattern of variation of 14C with age match the wiggle pattern of variation of 10Be in ice layers for the same ages if they are not both accurate and precise records of the cosmogenic climate that creates both 14C and 10Be in the atmosphere at different ages? Why does the pattern of variation of δ18O and δ13C in ice layers match the pattern of variation of δ18O and δ13C in a calcite flow in a cavern in Nevada for the same age, when one is measured by ice layers and the other is measured by two independent radiometric methods ("Thorium-230 dates were independently confirmed by non-USGS investigators using Protactinium-231.") ... if they are not due to the same actual age of the earth?
quote: (From Message 9 in this thread). The simplest explanation is that these congruent, correlating consiliences are due to actual age measurements, made by hard working scientists using a variety of methods that have each and all been demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt to be accurate and precise. The other simple explanation is that it was all created as a joke to delude people and with the intent to lead them astray. Loki comes to mind ... The earth is really old. Get used to it. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... But there is disagreement on between them on how old the earth is, ... Is that disagreement based on science or fantasy? Are you going to reply to Message 548 which shows that the earth is older than fantasy YECie belief/opinion/delusion ...
... what the supernatural is capable of if it isn't bound by one time and three space dimensions. Or do you go with the alternative?
quote: Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
"At some point", within DuPont's many methods, including science. (pure science) Not the atheist-promoting kind.
quote: http://www.dupont.com/...science/science-and-technology.html You'll notice there was nothing there about wasting a lot of time and effort in agonizing over the age of the earth. I also don't see anything there about them proving science, rather what I see is them applying what has been learned from science to make products -- that's chemical engineering not science. Try again. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Often after starting with a pre-determined conclusion, heavily influenced by a worldview. Can you give us an example of such a "pre-determined conclusion?" If it happens "Often" then you must have loads of examples, so trot one out.
Except when the creationist conception considers the possibility of another time dimension. ... In other words, magic time, miracle time, ... god-did-it time. Can you show how such creationist extra time dimension concept explains the amounts of Protactinium and Thorium in the solid calcite vein? Here it is again:
quote: How would a different/extra time dimension solve this problem for YECies? Inquiring minds want to know.
The earth is really old. Get used to it. I don't need to get used to it, I live in the present. ... So it really makes no real difference to your life if the earth is really old. You could accept an old earth and have no effect on your behavior or beliefs.
... The only reason you would suggest that I get used to it is to make it easier for me to accept future liberal political commands that are associated with its "knowledge". That's what the scientific community's brand of science is all about, isn't it? LOL. If it doesn't match your world view it must be a world wide conspiracy for mind control. Because liberal ... Curiously facts are neither liberal or conservative, they are just evidence of reality. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I analyze what they do and propose with other subjects, like history, and what the Holy Bible actually says. But not against actual empirical objective evidence, such as we have for an old earth. It doesn't take much to show that claims for a young earth are bogus and misinformed or plain lies. Of course you could prove me wrong by trotting out some evidence along with those preconceived assumptions you go on about.
Today's scientific community uses "science" to advance the global warming hoax, the biggest money and power grabbing political farce in world history. You must use the same approach to this information as you do to claims of a young earth -- listening to oil magnate puppets instead of looking at actual empirical objective evidence, because it doesn't take much to show that climate change is happening and that it is predominantly due to use of fossil fuels and the exhaust of CO2 into the atmosphere. The sea is risingThe temperatures are setting records The ice caps are melting It correlates with CO2 I was tempted to say you are off topic, but part of the evidence for an old earth is the correlations in the data to climate -- why do the different measuring systems that have markers for climate -- like tree ring widths and ice core δ18O variations -- correlate with climate variations, eg they have the same patterns of variations for the ages they measure? Ice Core Paleoclimatology Publications | Byrd Polar and Climate Research Center
quote: Funny how the evidence keeps piling up, and how evidence for an old earth also provides evidence of past climates keeps showing the modern trend is real and climate change is happening. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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That the earth is old, ... So you are saying that scientists already assumed the earth is old before they start counting tree rings? varve layers? ice core layers? That these facts uncovered are not really evidence of age? Fascinating. Demonstrably False, but fascinating to see how cognitive dissonance tries to disparage dissonant information ...
... that Darwinism is true, ... So you are saying that scientists already assumed that the mechanisms of evolution are valid before they start looking for mutations and start measuring the change in frequency of alleles in breeding populations from generation to generation? That the observation of natural selection in action based on variation in the populations are not really evidence of evolution? Fascinating. Demonstrably False, but fascinating to see how cognitive dissonance tries to disparage dissonant information ...
... that there is no creator, that no one has been endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights if no creator exists. Except for all those religious scientists ... like Dr. Roger C. Wiens quote: Then there is this:
Christian Geologists on Noah's Flood: Biblical and Scientific Shortcomings of Flood Geology, part 4 quote: The graphs appears to start with year 2000 CE (rather than 1950). This adds 2050 BP (100 BCE) and 2650 BP (700 BCE) to the list of correlations of historical artifact to dendrochronological age by 14C content. Note that this is NOT a 14C age calibration curve, it is a plot of the natural log of actual measured modern day 14C/14C(1950CE) levels vs annual calendar values from tree rings and lake varves, and this plot does not depend in any way on the half-life of 14C -- it just uses the ln(14C measured) for levels measured today. Note further that there is a discussion of the original Lake Suigetsu varve research at Accuracy in Genesis: Lake Varves quote: This recognizes that the consilience in the data from different sources gives high confidence in the results. Did those people start with your pre-assumptions? Or did they start with the pre-assumption that objective empirical evidence actually represents reality, that following where the evidence leads, not preconceptions, tells us the earth is old? Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : correctionby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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In other words, magic time, miracle time, ... god-did-it time. Yes, not big-bang time. So all the evidence is really a trick played by a trickster god ... Loki comes to mind. Or last-Thursdayism. You prefer fantasy to reality it seems.
How would a different/extra time dimension solve this problem for YECies? Inquiring minds want to know. The problem is only yours, in trying to fit all of reality into human understanding. So if I totally ignore reality I can live in the delusions of your world. If you ignore the problems do they go away? Do they magically disappear? Sorry. I prefer reality.
So it really makes no real difference to your life if the earth is really old. You could accept an old earth and have no effect on your behavior or beliefs. Yes I could. But it's one of the first, best starting points of AED's to convince future generations that if Genesis is wrong, then maybe everything else in the Bible is wrong too. Logical fail. Demonstrably false as well. When the world was accepted as orbiting the sun instead of vice-versa, that was not taken as proof that everything else in the Bible was wrong. The belief in a young earth is no more important to belief in the Bible than was belief in a geocentric universe. You do realize that the purported YECie age of the earth is based on many assumptions -- and that no two such assessments have come to the same end result? Why is that?
LOL. If it doesn't match your world view it must be a world wide conspiracy for mind control. Because liberal ... Similar to the way "Darwin's Black Box" didn't match your worldview? It was a world wide conspiracy for mind control against actual science, wasn't it? Actually it failed to match reality. And a rather pathetic attempt by one person does not a world wide conspiracy make. Wiki has this to say:
quote: Not a book - or an author - I would use to honestly represent reality. And none of it disproves or falsifies an old earth. None of it challenges the methods used to measure the age of the earth. None of it explains the correlations of different methods and the consilience of results. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Fixed, thanks.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Ya know, you've got the beginnings of a useful book in these posts. Yes, that is a project I am working on. It will require contacting all the people for permission to use their information. I've talked to a number already. The next step I am looking at is to put the new version all together in one topic that could be place on the correspondent forum, The way my building blocks #1 post was done. That would be a trial "publishing" if you will, open for peer review ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
If trees grew fast in the distant past, rings would not be any correlation or way to determine ages because trees growing in weeks and their rings could not be seasonal/yearly rings. Indeed, and we also know that the cells making up the tree rings in faster growing portions of the year are visibly different from those in the slower growing portions of the year, they are larger. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
You know that it is that way NOW! In the far past, say in the bristle-cone pines, if there were some visibly different rings, we would not know what caused them today! We know that the pattern of the widths is very consistent showing consistent growth with modern days. There are no significantly visibly different rings that what is observed from normal climate variations. Not in either of the two Bristlecone Pine chronologies nor in the two European Oak chronologies. Making up fantasy is not an argument, it is fantasy. Fantasies don't explain correlations -- such as the correlations of rings with carbon-14 content in the rings across all four chronologies. Which continues with the lake and maring varves. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Naturally ice layers would have also been different. Your correlations are flawed and all based on the present nature! What is your evidence? Do you know the detail of evidence of annual layers in the ice cores? Assertion and opinion have shown remarkably little success in changing reality. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Whatever there was or was not need not concern you since you don't know. You try to limit the future and past to the mere constraints of the current world. Except that we do know what the evidence shows, and what it shows is consistent old age from one measuring system to another. Can you explain that consistency -- why they all come to the same results with high degrees of consilience? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I seem to remember you could not even so much as produce a good pic of the inner tree rings for the bristlecone despite, if I recall having a family member in the field? Ha. ... You appear to confuse me with someone else.
... Now you want to tell us that it all looks alike? The pattern is consistent from year to year, decade to decade, millennia to millennia. Curiously the tree rings can be observed for the because it was cut down to count the rings.
quote: And you can also observe with your own eyes their consistent character of annual growth rings. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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