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Author | Topic: Decline And Fall Of The American Empire | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
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Human Labor. Spoken like a true member of the proletariat. Imagine that you have a warehouse of shiny widgets with no sales force, no and no advertising and marketing department. What is that stuff in the warehouse worth? Is it more or less than the equivalent weight of boat anchors or scrap metal? Let's say that the stuff in the warehouse is selling, but some engineer discovers that it can be used to cure cancer. Is the stuff in the warehouse more valuable despite the fact that labor did nothing more to add value? Who is entitled to that new value? And yet, without labor, there is no product, no value to try to market, increase or enhance. These questions are stuff that folks on either side of the question sometimes gloss over. There is no universally fair way to assess the contribution of any worker or capitalist, even if all a given laborer does is polish the tables in the show room. If he frees up a more expensive employee, why isn't he worth some of the benefit from doing that? And of course, the answer is because the employer uses a different system to evaluate what a laborer is worth. Probably akin to "how little can I pay this guy and still get him or somebody like him to walk in the door each day." On the other hand, the idea that labor creates all value is clearly bogus. Folks who take risks, and who lose money when things do not work out are folks who do contribute to value. One might reasonably question how the money should be divided up. But when the answer is "it's all mine and you get what I decide you should have", then the argument leading to that is suspect. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Isn't the money they risk also the fruit of human labor? Not necessarily. For example, inherited lottery winnings. Or money earned via investment in the stock market, where the initial investment is a loan. Or money from the sale of property whose value is primarily accumulated via appreciation rather. A bottle of wine may have a value that increases over time just from sitting in a cellar. Some of that money may have a labor component, but that component can be dwarfed by non-labor considerations. ABE: Beyond that, I would suggest that your question is not really relevant. No matter how a first million dollars is earned, if the money can become 2 million dollars for the owner without the owner adding labor, then it is ownership of that second million dollars that serves as the source of my comments. Edited by NoNukes, : ABE Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It only has "value" when somebody pays for it. Where does that money come from? You are ignoring the actual question. The question is not about the source of money, but the ownership of the profits. If the buyer has to work himself into an early grave in order to purchase the wine, then the owner of that old wine still reaps an increase with essentially no labor on his own part. Beyond that, the purchaser need not buy using the fruit of his own labor, but can be another capitalist. I don't know what I need to say to make my point any clearer. Some value is derived from sources other than labor even if labor is used to purchase that value. That is a direct exception to the general rule you asked me about. I won't try to explain this again. If you don't care about the ownership of the money then you are discussing something that has nothing to do with the point I made to Phat. I am not interested. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Your example is invalid. Try another one. My example is just fine for the purpose of showing that labor is not the source of all income and that other components make up GDP. Many transactions involve no labor at all. As for other examples, I've already given several. How about all income from interest as yet another. All income from any capital investment. And given that capital gains is a part of GDP, we don't have to wait until things are cashed out. Your theory is just as bankrupt as the one Phat originally stated. But at least he has the sense to figure out better. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Nope. The seller's income comes from the buyer, who gets it from labor. 1) Not necessarily. Buyers need not be laborers. 2) The point is that the seller gets his money without his own labor. As does the trust fund baby, as does a person who sells stock in a company, as does a person who draws interest on money in a bank. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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"Because what if the baker cant come to an agreement with the farmer?"
Then he will have to try other farmers. One problem with bartering as an alternative to a system using debt is that the farmer cannot get paid for months after he starts working. If he needs some capital to get started, what will offer? His wife and children? Or an IOU... Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I don't understand how that answers my questions. It doesn't. The first wells in America supplied a grade of petroleum that was directly usable as fuel. While exposing the oil required some labor, the natural resource itself was capable of providing value to its owner with very little labor. Once pumped, the value of the fuel can be changed by various market forces, not all of which involve labor in any way. Similarly, at least some minerals that we mine are usable in their natural state, while others have a value that is completely artificial and that completely dwarfs any valuation of the labor used to produce them. Diamonds are one example. The value of diamonds on the market is almost completely artificial. Physically equivalent diamonds can be made by machine also involving very little labor. Yet the diamonds on the market do not have the same value. To pretend that the entire value of such things comes from labor is ridiculous. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Except for natural resources - those things are the shit. There are a few other things that are roughly equivalent. Some man-made things have a value that appreciates over time. Wine stored in a dark cellar, or a 67 Mustang put away and never driven. The value of your house might increase because some capitalist wants to put a cell phone tower smack dab in your living room. The added value in each of those cases is no more labor-based than are the trees growing on your land that somebody wants. Those things are increases simply because other humans want or need for your objects increases. Value of a painting after the artist dies, or because his other works were destroyed in a museum fire.
but value, itself, is a human creation. It requires people, and at the very bottom somebody has to make the value. Of course, but not all such creations are through labor. What happens when factories become fully automated... Could we agree that the value then is created primarily without labor? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The "value" is what the buyer is willing to pay - and his ability to pay is based on labour. Sometimes, Ringo. Not always. Not all money is made by expending labor. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
When is something worth more than what the buyer is willing or able to pay? 1) Things are often worth more than the buyer is able to pay. In that case, he does not end up purchasing them. That does not prevent the putative from recognizing the value is beyond is ability to pay. But that is not even the issue here. The ultimate buyer still does not have to pay using labor. He can earn money in transactions that do not involve labor. 2) I've given examples, and you've given answers similar to this one that do not get to the point. 3) Often things have value in addition to the labor created value. Often that additional value can be converted to cash in a transaction that does not involve labor. For example, I can extract money from my house by borrowing more than its appreciated value, investing the funds in some passive income like buying wine to age. In the end, I can settle up and have additional funds with no expenditure of labor. It can very well be that everyone that I exchange with earned their money in similar, non-labor, ways Now if you want to call every act of endeavor labor, then you are just equivocating about the definition of labor. Yes, I agree that if there were no humans there is no value. I don't agree that all value comes from labor. Some value can be created merely by increases scarcity or increased demand. The question of how I monetize that value is a separate issue. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Art is priceless simply because no agreeable value can be found. Pieces of art change hands for money quite often Phat. Apparently, two or more people can agree on a value for a piece of art. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
What something is "worth" depends entirely on what somebody is willing and able to pay. You can claim that your painting is worth millions but if nobody agrees, it isn't. None of that affects the fact that value does not come from labor. I have no idea what point you think you are making with this line of argument. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
hen for God's sake, come up with an example that makes sense. Where does value magically come from in your world? I've given examples. You dispute them by claiming that the value is created by the purchaser rather than being part of what is purposed. You ignore the fact that even a day laborer won't part with his money unless he is receiving something of value. The problem is not that my answers do not make sense, it is that you refused to accept my answers. As long as we hold those positions, this discussion is not going anywhere. Of course, your dumbass then insists that you've won the argument. If we want a source for value, it is a combination of ownership/control and scarcity. Even labor's value is set in this way. You work at a job for 100 hours, but because a couple of hundred million other forks, including 100,000 folks within driving distance can do the same job, your labor is worth 7.25 per hour, and only that because the government artificially props it up. On the other hand, Cam Newton gets 10,000 times your pay just by granting a car dealer the right to publicize that he buys cars there. Labor is just another resource, and it is not involved in every transaction. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
s I've said, I'm not making an argument. I'm trying to understand yours. If you can't back it up or if you choose to abandon it, that doesn't break my heart. I've expanded my answer to include a source for value. But again, this is not rocket science. At this point, your inability to understand is on you. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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