The Tension of Faith

Are you suggesting that reality involves bad endings? I would certainly think that if we did become as gods we would make good endings. Perhaps Biblical Christians see God as always being on their side and can't conceive of a bad ending. Can you?

I would argue, however, that we are far from gods. I was looking up the Strongs Hebrew for God and gods in the story and its the same word! That snake had the audacity to suggest that we were just like Elohim! The snake surely wasn't. The snake was cunning, which implies deceit. As a plot device, emphasizing that the snake told the truth and that God lied sorta throws a wrench in the whole concept of who the good guy and the bad guy are. I mean, how many cunning people do you know that end up tricking you by telling the truth? (Partial truths)Edited by Phat, : added ranting

Why do you think they elected Trump? They wanted a happy ending. Somebody is lying when one of the 1% promises prosperity and greatness for the 99%.
(I take back what I said about you being arrogant...im curious why the prostitute is like the Biblical Christians though...gotta watch that old movie.)Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Not so much arrogant as careless. I have read the story before, however. I guess I'm not paying full attention...my posts are part of my multitasking early morning regimen.

I was referring to me. It was suggested that I was arrogant. I'm the careless one because I don't read carefully before commenting.I am going through some tough mental times right now....I'll share the struggle some day.

What about those you don't care about?
My beliefs are actually an evolving thing. I don't necessarily believe what my church believes and am unafraid to question and philosophize over what I have been taught, what others believe, and what i myself choose to believe. Here is a quick summary, for the purpose of this discussion. My beliefs may change in a year...but they have remained roughly the same since I was saved in 1993.
I BELIEVE:

GOD is probably not quite like any of us imagine or read of Him to be. Jesus, however, is Gods character in human form. Jesus is exactly the way that the Gospels portray Him as. Thus, when dealing with GOD, I believe that humans need to deal with Jesus.
This does not mean that I believe all other religions or atheists are going to Hell. Hell (if Hell exists) was never created for humans. Hell was created for the fallen angels. Humans would only end up in Hell by following a false god...be it a demon or a psychotic stronghold within their own personality. God does not send anyone to Hell. We are responsible. Some argue that God is evil for even allowing such a concept to exist. Consider, for a moment how fair or unfair this really is. If you had a family Bar-B-Que would you allow just anyone and everyone to show up? No...we have certain in groups and out groups. Hell is for people who refuse to get to know Gods human character even after having been shown proof that it (He) is real.

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Prayer is communion and communication with GOD (Through Jesus) yet is inner meditation/communication with our higher self. This does not mean that we are our own gods...it means that anyone who accepts Jesus is communicating with the blessed communion of Christ in us...while the others are communicating with an inner plethora of wisdom,philosophy and belief gleaned from the information and cultural chatter they have learned.

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God does not pick and choose who makes it and who does not. Everyone will have an opportunity at some point...be it in life or shortly after death...to meet Jesus and decide whether or not to accept Him. Of course, critics will argue that we never truly have the freedom to be left alone. We are forced to choose to attend this celestial house party or remain in outer darkness...right?

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I believe that each of us will be judged individually. We are all witnesses. I am also beginning to agree with jar that nobody starts out damned.

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So what about atheists? Lets take tangle, as an example. He thinks it is all made up. How would he be hypothetically judged? Well in my opinion, he will be judged as to how he conducts his life in communion with others. He may appear to say no to Jesus on the surface, but his actions throughout his life may well be pleasing to the father. Lets go further...how about the Vegas shooter?

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Comments, Faith?

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Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

The basis of my beliefs is my inner relationship with the Holy Spirit. I am not easily swayed by what other people say, but I DO consider it. The reason is that just as God worked through a Donkey(2 Peter 2:16) He can work through members at EvC as well as Pastors. Because Jesus is alive in me. Also because I ask for wisdom. I could be wrong, for i won't be so arrogant as to assert that I know that I'm right in every detail. I consider the logic of some new information and either accept it or reject it. Again, the source of my beliefs is Christ in me rather than the Bible as a literal interpretation. Much of what I believe often does contradict the Bible...and jar, among others, points this out to me. Sometimes I change my belief slightly while other times I hang on stubbornly. Because God says that he will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. I believe that Gods mercy will save many whom otherwise wouldn't make it. I realize that the idea is also a Hindu concept. What I am talking about, however, is the Spirit living within us. When you pray and meditate, you are not accessing your own higher self...you are communing with the Spirit.I think where we differ, if at all, is that you trust the Bible itself and I trust Christ in me. Thats why I am not as hung up on a literal Genesis as you are. The alternative is that God has tricked secular science. Does that seem rational in this modern world? Good question. I'll have to think about and pray about that one.Edited by Phat, : added question

OK let's settle this. Does the Bible clearly say that God chooses or does the issue imply that humans choose?I covered this briefly in the Calvinism and Arminianism Remix thread.

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According to Arminianism:

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Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man(who must respond)man’s response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man’s will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.REJECTED by the Synod of Dort. This was the system of thought contained in the Remonstrance (though the five points were not originally arranged in this order). It was submitted by the Arminians to the Church of Holland in 1610 for adoption but was rejected by the Synod of Dort in 1619 on the ground that it was unscriptural.

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According to Calvinism:

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Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ’s death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.REAFFIRMED by the Synod of DortThis system of theology was reaffirmed by the Synod of Dort in 1619 as the doctrine of salvation contained in the Holy Scriptures. The system was at that time formulated into five points (in answer to the five points submitted by the Arminians) and has ever since been known as the five points of Calvinism.

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Our question is what does the Bible clearly say and does it make sense?Personally, I disagree with the Synod of Dort. I also do not believe that God could be so controlling. It could well be that He thus would foreknow that Faith and I may end up in Hell and there is nothing we could do to change it.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Interesting discussion! And you are right...it is controversial. I quoted the high points:

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Formally, the Calvinist position can be expressed this way:

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Jesus lays down his life for the sheep.[John 10:14-15]

Jesus will lose none of his sheep.[John 10:28]

Many people will not receive eternal life.[Mat 7:13-14]

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Therefore, the Calvinist position is that Jesus did not die for everyone, but only for those whom the Father purposed to save.
Additionally, in the high priestly prayer, Jesus prays for the protection and sanctification of those who believed in him, and he explicitly excludes praying for all: "I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."[Jn 17:9b]. Paul instructs the elders in Ephesus "to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood,"[Acts 20:28] and he says in his letter to the same church that "Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."[Eph 5:25] Likewise, Jesus foreshadows that he will lay down his life "for his friends,"[Jon 15:13 cf. Jn 10:15] and an angel tells Jesus' earthly father Joseph that he "will save His people from their sins".[Mat 1:21] Calvinists believe that these passages demonstrate that Jesus died for the church (that is, the elect) only.

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Calvinists have to wrestle with a significant number of verses which directly contradict limited atonement:

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Jesus promises that whosoever believes in him has everlasting life. John 3:16

Peter proclaims that everyone who calls upon Jesus will be saved. Acts 2:21

God calls all people everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9

God desires all people to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4

Jesus is a ransom for all. 1 Timothy 2:6

Jesus is the propitiation "for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2
These verses seem to directly contradict limited atonement and are often cited in opposition.

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I am quite sure I am not a Calvinist. I agree more with the latter points which refute it.Add By Edit: I reread the Calvinism/Arminianism thread and found that most of this stuff has been already discussed. Sometimes I feel that some of us rehash the same beliefs and arguments again and again and again.....
I wish we could take a new approach for a change. That's another reason I question and revise my beliefs. I'm not convinced 100% of many of the historical arguments.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

But how do you know its true. A lot of things can be said to be based on the Bible. Besides, an equal number of examples support Arminianism. A few years ago I would have had no reason to challenge such belief for it was in line with what was taught. I have since learned that it is no sin to question the Bible nor God.Does it really make sense that God has only chosen some and not all? Its hard enough to understand our own mind! But is it wise to ignore non-believers or even immature believers with lots of questions? Does not the Bible even tell us to be ready in season and out to provide a defense of the faith? I cant simply accept the answer that Gods sovereign Will is beyond my understanding.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Then how did the early believers become believers...before there even was a Bible? When I first became a believer, it was almost as if I git knocked to the ground, it was so clear. I would never have questioned it nearly as much were it not for EvC. I've been in some good Bible Studies also, and nobody ever questions anything there. I never understood why Christians don't question things more once they get saved.I was always warned that in so doing I was getting in the way of new believers and should thus keep quiet.

LOL...This is a classic! Faith, we love you! From this day forward I will always make sure I am soaked in prayer!! And yes I am being serious! I am not out to disprove anyone..but I need to clarify my own position and others here at EvC Forum help me to do just that! Jar and I have had some classic rounds over the past 10 years, and if you peruse the archives you will see that I was very similar to you in my beliefs early on in the forum.Jar used to frustrate the heck out of me, and more than once I even accused him of being inspired by satan! It became my mission to challenge and disprove everything that he talked about, and yet even as my own belief became stronger, it also became weaker. You never let this happen to you, however. You simply ignore any confrontational argument...at least publically. I have watched you battle it out with Percy and have even watched the forum gang up on you yet you would never take the time to learn their arguments well enough to even attempt to refute them.Your passion has been apparently Biblical Creationism, yet you have never been able to explain the method, process, or means that anything could have happened. I too was frustrated when I could never even get so far as to explain to jar or to anyone else what Jesus is alive in my heart even meant.Ringo also frustrated me because he never even allowed himself to take my original assumptions about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit seriously. Some days I came to the forum soaked in prayer...up to the gills! They would simply challenge me with logic, reason, and reality. I had a choice...at that point to either ignore what they said or try to express my bias in a new and more creative way...a process that continues to this present day. If being soaked in prayer and reading the Bible counted for wisdom, I would have begun to actually win a few arguments. Yet it has never happened with me nor with you, I CANT, jaywill,GDR, or kbertsche...though I see some progress with GDR and kbertsche regarding their arguments.Why do you think this is? Is it them or is it us???? After all, we too have fallen minds...and being soaked in prayer does not make us infallible.

How is she contradicting the Bible? There are children of the light and children of the darkness. Enmity between two seeds.You better go let your head soak a while longer! Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Logic tells me that I won't understand God any better by reading Confucious, Mencias, or Mark Twain.You have apparently read the Bible several times, yet it has not made you any closer to GOD has it? All that happens is that you get more cantankerous and clever with logic, reason, and reality. How can humanity begin to understand the message that Jesus tells us any better?I have gone and fed, clothed and comforted many people but all that I learned was that more needs to be done and that the rich always keep their money and the poor widows have to use their last two mites to give anyone any spare change.Why do you think I get frustrated at watching the United States self-destruct?? You were right about one thing---this whole Christianity gig is hard work...and often thankless.

As a Christian representing Gods Word, you simply must respond in science and evidence-based forums. To fail to do so is dishonest and reflects poorly on the Christ within you. Walthers LawHow would you like it if it is someday discovered that RAZD, Tangle, and many others who may have accepted Jesus based on seeing honesty in you instead rejected Him due to your behavior?