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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The key issue is honesty versus silence. If people see us as honest they will be more likely to forgive us for disagreeing with them. If they only get silence and refusal to answer, it shows poorly on the character of Christ. IMHO anyway.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Here is an interesting article from Charisma News. Is Giving Someone the ‘Silent Treatment’ Really Like Witchcraft?
quote:"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry" (1 Sam. 15:23) Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I'm just pointing out what Charisma Magazine says. I could be willfully ignorant of the reality of human psychology, yet I have studied psychology myself and dont conflate it with what has been taught spiritually by Christian commentators.
Just as we cant use physics to explain belief, we really cant honestly say that any personality quirks are demonically (or angelically) inspired.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
PaulK writes: The only sense I can make out of Calvinism as a doctrine and method is that telling people that God does the choosing is like telling your kids that if they don't go to bed the boogie man will get them. Other than that I agree that Calvinism, as marketed, makes no sense. In my belief, God is more than fair and the choice between salvation and damnation rests in that mystery known as communion...between our human minds and Gods mind. The question isn't how God chooses but why God would choose some and not others at all. Original Sin is not a logical belief. I would go so far as to say, however, that Original Tendencies more closely approximates my view. Accepting Christ is a bit like allowing an expert to walk you through the manual. You don't need the expert per se, but if you then misread the manual, it's all YOUR fault for ignoring the expert in the first place.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
People are just not like this. What...you dont think we consciously choose to be either mostly selfless...considering the needs of others before ourselves OR selfish...looking out for #1?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes:
I'm starting to agree with the idea that there is no black and white dichotomy in human morality. I used to firmly believe in the all or nothing pronouncement of saved or lost but am now more comfortable with the honest realization that I could be both!
We don't just choose to be either naughty or nice, like a computer programme. Nor do we stay in one format all the time. We're not binary. GDR language here is pure religious babble that bears no resemblance to how we know we work.... Percy writes:
I used to defend this accusation by stating that one has to either stand for something or they will fall for anything! but I am now realizing that I actually stand for many things and fall for many things every day and that it is overall a learning process.
To embrace a particular interpretation of any particular Biblical narrative is a conceit that you've chosen the correct version of God while others have not.GDR writes:
Philosophy and theology don’t have the benefit of particle colliders. Percy writes: I'm not entirely in agreement there. Critics will say that I need my beliefs as a crutch and I will concede that they are right. I simply could never even imagine being an atheist! The implications are chilling to me personally. This does not imply that I don't respect them, however. And again...here we go with the whole us and them thing. I keep needing to remind myself that it is WE. Well, yes, exactly, and the reason why is a key point. They're missing the tools of evidence for a very good reason - they're fictional. And the word fictional is illogical to my conclusions. *hugs teddy bear tighter!*Perhaps I am scared that if I dont stand for Jesus I will fall for atheism! *ponders* Percy writes: This point agrees with Ringos mantra that values the message above the messenger. My response has always been to declare that the messenger is the message, and I think that GDR agrees with that as well. Great discussion, though! The moral spirit of Jesus (or Buddha or Gandhi) doesn't really need a religion.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: True, but I'm getting better. In addition, I feel that I can almost explain what you think it means. Please don't tell me that I need to throw the messenger away however. That always causes me great anxiety. Yet you can never explain what that even means.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
For one thing, it means that I have to do the whole job myself without any help. Its like when I was a kid and boasted that my Dad could beat up your Dad and yet deep down probably knew that my Dad would never show up to validate my aggression.
I realize that you believe that true Christianity is not easy,...it is hard work and we are charged to do it ourselves. It would be nice to get some help though. When I was growing up my Dad always had a spare $20.00 bill for me when I needed one. Why can't God be the same way? Does'nt anybody realize that I'm getting older and weaker and can't do what I once did? What sort of a tough love God do we have, anyway? Edited by Phat, : addedChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Thanks for that dose of cynicism! Makes me feel a whole lot better! You believe that there is no rescuer. And if I give up hope I too can be glad to be in touch with reality, eh? How encouraging!
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Noah didn't have to do anything! He chose to do it because he was obviously an animal lover. The rest of us drowned though.
This whole argument is all about having to do everything ourselves or receiving help. I vote help. That's one reason I am a believer. It seems that counting on people isnt enough. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
This is all true. The question we had, however, was whether the messenger was, in fact, the point of the message or whether we ourselves were the point of the message. Can we do it without Him? Was that His message all along?
Edited by Phat, : sub titleChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Oh C,mon. You know exactly what I'm talking about!
Remember your exchange with Joe Wood? The Nehi Soda? He had a bucket with cokes and Nehi orange and grape soda and we'd sit side by side at a table and just talk. I remember telling him that "Jesus died for my sins and so if I believed in Him I was saved." and his laugh before he said, "Well, then I guess all this is a waste of time isn't it?" ....The messenger is Jesus. The message is the Death, Burial, and Resurrection. Of course, you disagree. Christianity is about what YOU do. That's your basic argument. While the other view is that Christianity is about what He did. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You might wonder why i go off on these rabbit trails every few years or so. The truth is that my brain is locked into a pattern that always repeats itself and that in this pattern I prefer fantasy over reality. I think you have taught the message well over the years and that if I yearn for easy answers and get out of hell free cards its basically my own fault. I think it all started when i was young. The rescue always came sooner or later. I expect Jesus to provide the same thing.
Hou taught me well enough to make the choice between relief and responsibility. The brain pattern is real, however. Biblical Christianity can be an addiction.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Im still coming to grips with the whole idea of Fallen Minds and Regenerated Minds.
When I first got saved, I had no doubt that the doctrine was sound. Thats how it was taught to me. There were too many loose ends, however.
ringo writes: Its not so much the book itself being true...except in context. Its about the God within the book being more than simply a character in the book. Granted there is no easy way to objectively test this.
How can you know whether the Bible is true or not if you don't understand it? ringo writes: Supposedly this regeneration that Faith talks about removes all doubt. Personally, I prefer the word "questioning" rather than "doubting" because I wouldnt bother reading the book at all if I doubted it.
You can't look at anything honestly without doubting that it's true. Percy,to Faith writes: What we could do as individuals is to start with the observation that our mind had in fact been regenerated. I recall when I felt this way, but it may well have been a subjective experience which I recall observing. It most definitely felt real, however.
But you can't substantiate your premise that the Bible is God's word. You can't even substantiate your premise that God exists. Good point. All I know is that He exists when I'm in trouble...at least in my mind and heart. He is nearly impossible to objectively substantiate for teaching others, however. The best way that I can attempt to do this is to model my own behavior as if he lives within me so as to teach by example. At best, this simply reflects my character, however...not so much His character.
Percy writes:
If you have a fallen mind, how can you know whether any judgment you make is true, including the judgment that the Bible is inerrant?Faith writes: I have a regenerated mind, or what is sometimes called a "sanctified" mind, which is given to believers by God and permits us through the Holy Spirit to ascertain divine truths. ...I'm going to leave that one alone.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Percy writes: I always thought this implied that material objects were made of atoms.. but that was simply my interpretation of that verse. ...A paraphrase of Hebrews 11:1, which descends into nonsense by 11:3 ("...things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.")....Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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