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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: Exactly. Doing what Jesus taught, what the Buddha taught before him, what Judaism teaches, what Islam teaches, what most atheist practice, is a good way to live one's life. That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I am a Christian. Christianity is but one possible path, not "THE Path". It is the path I happened to take. But just as Jesus points out in Luke, just as with the Jews, we are NOT the Chosen People. That's all great. It sounds like the Rotary Club. AS I said, you're a cultural Christian. Why on earth do you object to that?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: I object because that is simply wrong. I am NOT a cultural Christian but just a Christian. It really is that simple. You can call yourself whatever you like. Your statements speak for yourself. You agree that your beliefs are compatible with the majority of religions and even secular humanism.
jar writes: Maybe it would help if I explained that I am a Christian who no longer thinks as a child. That is typical of the amount of hubris that very often is typical of your posts. Hardly Christian don't you think? Read my signature.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Aussie writes: So purely in terms of story telling, Lazarus seems like an even more dramatic resurrection. Lazarus experienced a resuscitation. He later died the same death that all of us experience. There is no account of Lazarus' revival being called a resurrection. Many Jews at the time believed in a resurrection at some point in the future when Yahweh would raise up the faithful to be with Him. Thus the metaphorical, (at least I believe it was metaphorical), telling of the the bodies of the saints rising from the dead and leaving their tombs. Matthew understood that this was not a simple case of bringing someone back to life, but a case of bringing someone back to a new form of life, or the new Adam of a renewed world. This is also consistent with the entire NT.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: Some of my beliefs are compatible with the majority of religions and even secular humanism. You say that some are. That's true for me too. Which of your beliefs as a Christian don't fall into that category?
jar writes: I am a Christian who no longer thinks as a child and one that actually can read with comprehension. It's not hubris but an attempt at education. Thanks heavens we have you adults around to keep us children on the true path. Nope, no hubris there.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: Go back and read Message 111 and Message 155 and Message 266 and Message 349 and Message 358 and Message 369 and if you want I can likely point you to other posts. I read them all and none them point out an example of you holding onto any particular belief that can't be held by a secular humanist. You say you believe in the Nicene Creed. Here's part of it.quote: Here is a quote from one of your earlier posts.
jar writes: Also the fact of Jesus living, Jesus death, Jesus resurrection and Jesus ascension are irrelevant to the foundational beliefs of Christianity. Even if none of it ever really happened people believed that Jesus did live, did teach, did die, did arise from the dead and did ascend to heaven and that at some future date will judge all. If it didn't really happen Jesus is a delusional failed messiah, and there is no reason to believe anything He says. That wouldn't mean that the message of love, peace and forgiveness that is found in the Gospels is irrelevant. It simply means that we really need other sources to come to the conclusion that it represents a positive path in life. The bulk of secular humanists would agree. Here is Phat's definition of a cultural Christian. quote: That fits you to a tee. I was raised as a Christian. I was baptized and confirmed and then decided it wasn't all that relevant and got on with life for about 20 years. I would say that following the life style and choices that Jesus espoused was a good thing and I more or less did that, but I considered myself more of an agnostic than anything else. I think another mistake you are making is that, correct me if I'm wrong, that you are assuming that I believe that by getting these beliefs right that I will be granted salvation. We are actually on the same page except that I think that I'm even less inclined than you are to claim who is on the right path when it comes to our lives. I do agree with you that it isn't what we give intellectual assent to that makes us right with God. You seem to think that ultimately it is about the lives we live that matters. I agree with that to a point but I don't think that it is so much about what we actually do that matters but our motivation for what we do. A simple example is that when we donate our time or financial resources to others less fortunate, but if it is really about the desire to be well thought of by our peers, it isn't the same as doing it just because we want to do the right thing regardless of any recognition. It is about choosing between loving selfishly and loving unselfishly. It is about the heart. We probably agree about what is the right path for our lives and we can agree that that path can be found in other faiths, including secular humanism but that is not the same discussion as to what it is about the Christian religion itself that distinguishes it from other faiths.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Sorry to be so long in replying. I get tied up with life.
ringo writes:
It wasn't simply rising form the dead to only continue aging and die again later. The account that the Gospels and Epistles give is of a resurrection into a renewed, not a revived body, that is eternal. It was a body that was there and then it wasn't. In modern terms it was a body that could move between God's dimension and our own. Yes. He rose from the dead. That's what the word means. Just Google "Resurrection of Lazarus". Paul writes this in 1Cor. 15:quote: Paul's point is that the resurrected Jesus is the new Adam of a renewed creation. Certainly we can reject this message but that is what the Biblical stories relate.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: What part of I believe the Nicene Creed and I do not take pieces parts of the Nicene creed out of context do you not understand. The part where you say this.
jar writes: Also the fact of Jesus living, Jesus death, Jesus resurrection and Jesus ascension are irrelevant to the foundational beliefs of Christianity. Even if none of it ever really happened people believed that Jesus did live, did teach, did die, did arise from the dead and did ascend to heaven and that at some future date will judge all. The resurrection was the foundational belief of Christianity. The disciples scattered when the crucifixion happened, out of fear that they might suffer the same fate. They obviously concluded that they had backed the wrong horse and that Jesus was just another in a growing list of failed messiahs. The Gospel accounts without the resurrection make Jesus delusional and if that is the case then secular humanism makes much more sense than Christianity.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: Too funny. - And yet again, learn to read, comprehend and actually think. As you so often do, you return your method of making your point by mocking whoever it is you are having a discussion with. Not really that Christ like for a Christian. It doesn't make your view point any more convincing. Anybody can call themselves a Christian and so I suppose that would make them one, but I have yet to hear anything about your beliefs that would distinguish you from a secular humanist other than the statement that you are a Christian.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: So now I am in need... hmmmm
I do not mock people but I do try to help those in need.jar writes:
You keep repeating that statement without addressing the point that I have raised more than once including the post to which you are responding. What part of "I believe the Nicene Creed but do not take pieces parts of it out of context and am a Confirmed Member of a Recognized Chapter of club Christian." are you have problems understanding? And you still have failed to point out anything that differentiates your beliefs from that of a secular humanist except that you attend a Christian church and call yourself a Christian. The Nicene Creed is made up of numerous statements of faith that stand alone. Just what is it that you don't take out of context. Help me understand.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
I found this on the internet which explains far better than I can what is meant by resurrection in the Bible, so I thought I'd send it along as well.
Resurrection quote: He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes:
The Nicene Creed is a series of statements of "beliefs" not of faith. The Nicene Creed in toto is a Statement of Faith.It even says "I(We) believe..." And in Message 371 did you or did you not post: GDR writes: Do you believe this part of the Nicene creed? quote: jar writes: Sure, but you say that by doing that I’m not taking it in context. What’s the context that says that it is not to be taken as historical?
Is that not taking pieces parts out of the Nicene Creed?jar writes: Yup
Had I not already said on many occasions that I believe the Nicene Creed?jar writes: Nope
Is the Nicene Creed a Statement of Faith of "Ghandians" whatever they are?jar writes: It is not synonymous with know, it might be fact and it might be reality. It really is simple. Belief is not synonymous with Know or Fact or Truth or Reality.jar writes: If you are looking at it strictly as a matter of what God wants from us then I agree. It is the heart that he is interested in. I also agree that an atheist or a secular humanist can have a heart that is more consistent with my signature than many Christians. I’m not talking about who is going to be on the right side of God at the end of this life.
It is irrelevant whether or not the things that Christians believe are based on fact or reality.The vast body of evidence show that religions, faith, regardless of which specific one is examined, are simply wrong. There is no reason to think Christianity is any different. But that has nothing to do with what someone believes or what makes them a Christian.
What body of evidence is there that says the resurrection is not an historical event? The only evidence we have one way or the other is the NT and we can either choose to believe what is in there or not.In the Nicene Creed we are stating that I (we) believe what I quoted above. You aren’t prepared to say that you believe those things to be historical. Obviously they were meant to be understood as historical. They may have gotten it wrong but I believe they got it right and you apparently don’t and say that it is immaterial. jar writes: I agree.
Believing the Nicene Creed is an element of Trinitarian Christianity.jar writes: As I understand Unitarianism it is as much about semantics as anything else, and probably both of us could find some common ground with them.I don’t get your point, but I don't think that it's relevant. But there are also Unitarian Christians.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Sorry. Forgot this one. Thanks Percy.
Aussie writes:
Actually it all fits. Because of the resurrection the early Christians had to sort out what that meant to them by going back to their Scriptures and to what Jesus had told them both before and after being resurrected. This account is written only in the Gospel of Matthew and it is typical of early Jewish apocalyptic writing. It is the one Gospel that was specifically pointed at a Jewish audience. Whoah! Wait a minute... The saints coming out of their graves at Jesus' death is only metaphorical? Matt 27:51 "At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."That is just a metaphor? Really? So was the veil being rent in two also a metaphor? Because that appears in the exact same tiny cluster of verses. Please answer. Was Judas hanging himself also metaphorical? It's in the same chapter. What about Jesus' conversation with Pilate? What about His death? Was the securing and guarding of the tomb by the Roman soldiers a metaphor? This is an important point. Why did you pick this one thing out of one chapter and suddenly decide it doesn't mean what it clearly says? The point was that because of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus it met certain things. The Jews had believed that God could only be met behind the veil behind which was the holy of holies in the Temple, and then only by the chief priest. Matthew is saying that God was now not just accessible to the chief priest but was accessible to all. Many Jews believed that there would be a resurrection of the righteous at the end of time. Matthew is saying that because of the resurrection of Jesus it meant that the saints had been raised with Jesus. It is Matthews attempt at understanding what the resurrection of Jesus meant to and for his Jewish readers.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: Fair enough. I meant to make the point that the Bible and other Jewish books have a more specific understanding of what resurrection means. I really don't care how some people interpret resurrection in the Bible. As I said, just Google "resurrection of Lazarus". You'll find that other people do use the word "resurrection" in reference to Lazarus. Edited by GDR, : typoHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Aussie writes: Could you be a little more specific for me please? I'm not trying to be pedantic, but I think this is an important point in terms of how we approach Scripture. By "Matthew's attempt at..." do you mean "Matthew deliberately inserted a solitary metaphor right in the middle of an otherwise purely factual account", or by "Matthew's attempt at..." do you mean in the sense of "Matthew did his best but got it wrong here." ? It is my belief that Matthew is telling his Jewish readers what the resurrection means to them and told in the way things were usually told in that day and that culture. His point was that as Jesus was resurrected this is what it means. His view point was that it meant that God was accessible to everyone and that death had been defeated and that physical death is not the end. From the time of the resurrection onward the bulk of the NT is a case of the writers and others studying Jesus' life and words within the context of the resurrection to better understand the nature of God, what He wants of us and what He has planned for the future. I think that this is a case of that happening. Possibly there was an earthquake that that caused things like graves being opened and the veil being torn but it is my opinion that it was a case of Matthew using Jewish apocalyptic wring in metaphor or parable form to tell a spiritual truth.
Aussie writes: Could you please explain your approach to interpreting Scriptural metaphor vs, Scripture as fact? Firstly I understand the Scriptures this way. God inspired, (not dictated) men to write down their stories. In the Gospels Jesus is constantly referring to what was written in the Hebrew Scriptures, sometimes confirming them and sometimes correcting them. In order to understand Jesus in His Jewish context as told in the NT, the OT is indispensable. In order to understand the OT it has to be done through the lens of what Jesus taught. The key to it all is the resurrection. It is fundamental to the Christian faith. It is written about extensively in all of the Gospels and the book of Acts as well as being taken as a given in the Epistles. In this case the take away message that Matthew is giving to his readers is what I outlined above and as long as the message is understood, then whether he is talking in parables as Jesus so often did or describing an historical event is a matter of opinion. It seems to me that it is so much like other Jewish apocalyptic language that it is very reasonable to assume that it is a metaphor.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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GDR writes:
In order to understand the OT it has to be done through the lens of what Jesus taught.New Cats Eye writes:
Yes and no. The thing is they already had the message that Jesus brought. For example when asked which commandment is the most important commandment Jesus said it was to love God and neighbour which is Jesus referring back to the Torah. If you notice my signature is an OT quote. There were also many cases in the OT of people acting out of love. That sucks for the pre-Jesus Jews who thought they were God's chosen people but couldn't even get the whole story so were doomed to misunderstand it. I don’t see it as necessarily a case of them not getting the whole story but more about them more often than not getting it wrong. To a very large degree Jesus brought clarity. Now when we see a story about Yahweh ordering genocide we can look at through the lens of Jesus who told us to love our neighbours and we can know that they got it wrong. As I said, I don’t think it has changed all that much today in our own cultures. We still very often look for a warrior god, and we still very often approach God with the idea of what is in it for me. I used to have a thing on the fridge that said: most people want to serve God but only in an advisory capacity.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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