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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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SO remarkable that millions of normal intelligent people, and even some very very educated intelligent people as well, have regarded the Bible's evidence as sufficient to utterly commit their lives to Jesus Christ over the last two thousand years, and in so doing made the world a better place. For a good amount of that history there were incentives for many people to say they found the Bible persuasive, and punishments for saying they didn't. Not that I know of. What period would that have been and who was it that enforced such a position? Actually the opposite was the case for centuries when the Roman Church insisted that the Bible be read only in Latin (if at all, since they often taught nothing from the Bible at all, but only the pagan philosophers and pagan religious superstitions. One priest who encountered the Bible for the first time admitted that if that is Christianity nobody in the Church teaches it) and people were burned at the stake for translating it into the common languages. Most people were illiterate before the Protestant Reformation, which made sure they got the Bible in their own language as well as instruction in how to read it.
Even now - there are many places where professing broad scepticism in the Bible may harm your career. I'm sure that could be although I don't personally know of it. What are you talking about? As a matter of fact I think it is far more likely for someone who does believe the Bible, or confesses to being a Bible believing Christian, whose career could be threatened. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I guess I'm just not interested enough to try to figure out what you are claiming. I assume a reasonable explanation for any phenomena in the Bible especially when someone acts like there isn't a reasonable explanation.
ABE: Ya wanna know why? Because I have all kinds of evidence that the Bible is trustworthy and its critics are anything but. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What period would that have been and who was it that enforced such a position? Most of European history. The enforcers were the common folk, the priests, local authorities, local nobles all the way up to the Monarch or Pope. That is just not true. Where are you getting that? The Bible was possessed by very very few of the common folk, most of those who did possess it+ in hiding from the Roman Church, such as the Waldensians who lived in the valleys of the Alps, and they were nevertheless subject to murdering rampages there too because they DID possess the Bible and were considered heretics for it. It was those who HAD the Bible, and preached from it to others, who were persecuted for "most of European history," not the other way around. Few people were educated at all, and even those who were had been stuffed full of Roman paganisms, NOT the Bible. None of them were interested in enforcing the Bible, quite the other way around, particularly the priests and the Pope. The priests could read the Bible though not all did, more interested inrelics and indulgences and masses for the dead and all that superstitious nonsense, though some of them preached from it, in Latin.
Actually the opposite was the case for centuries when the Roman Church insisted that the Bible be read only in Latin...Most people were illiterate before the Protestant Reformation, which made sure they got the Bible in their own language as well as instruction in how to read it. I was referring, as you did, to educated people. Educated people would likely have studied Latin, the Bible and a variety of theological works as part of that education. But there weren't many educated people and most of them were priests, and in any case until the Reformation there was NO interest in the Bible that would have been forced on people, quite the opposite as I said: they were persecuted for following the Bible, or for not living according to the Roman supersititions -- that could get you persecuted.
Intelligent people who are told by a priest about the contents of the Bible - would likewise too run into problems if they expressed overt skepticism. But that did not happen. The Bible was NOT revered until the Reformation. After that if you can produce some historical information I could maybe see your point to some small extent, but not before it, not in any Roman Catholic context, which was of course the dominant influence in Europe until then.
And after the Protestant reformation intelligent people would still risk significant problems - including torture and death, to question the reliability of the Bible. It's possible after the Reformation because the Bible had become the authority over Church tradition, but also the Bible was a powerful liberating force in people's minds, the minds of the intelligent people I'm talking about. The intelligent people were strongly FOR he Bible, so that your idea of there being some kind of class of intelligent skeptics just doesn't wash during that period. Not earlier and not in the early years of the Reformation either. Now by the time we get to the Enlightenment and all that yes you've got your anti-religion skeptics, most of them against the Roman Church, however, not the Bible, and I still don't see any enforcement of the Bible against anyone. You are making all this up Mod.
I'm sure that could be although I don't personally know of it. What are you talking about? Running for office in the USA is commonly difficult for a known skeptic. Most politicians profess faith of some sort - even as their actions often suggest otherwise. OK so it appears you aren't talking about "most of European history" at all, you are talking about very modern times. However, I'm not sure about your focus on the Bible even then, a focus on Christian principles in general, Protestant principles, OK, but the Bible? Not particularly. Unfortunately the strong Reformation Protestant underpinnings of much of Europe and also of America, were undermined by the Enlightenment trends even when the Protestants were strongest, and by the 20th century were falling behind. America did enforce blasphemy laws early on, perhaps you could focus on that to some effect. In any case you need some, yes, evidence, for your claims, this isn't holding together as you've presented it.
As a matter of fact I think it is far more likely for someone who does believe the Bible, or confesses to being a Bible believing Christian, whose career could be threatened. I've not seen that. I've seen cases of people inappropriately proselyting or failing to perform duties citing their Christianity run into problems. There is no law against proselytizing except one made up in the feverish heads of anti-Christians, and I have no idea what you mean by "failing to perform duties" so I'd probably disagree with you about that too. Perhaps you'd like to take another run at this topic with more specificity? Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Regardless, one would not fair well in either the Catholic or heretic camps if one was to say you were skeptical of the Bible But that never happened anyway. All this is some fantasy of yours. And now I get that what you mean by not performing one's duties is refusing to do somerhing that violates Christian belief. Yes that has been happening in VERY recent times due to anti-Christian forces in society that are returning us to paganism. You won't enjoy it when it's in full force, that's for sure. But enjoy your delusion for the time being. Meanwhile this is not the subject. The subject is supposedly people suffering because of rejecting the Bible and you have completely failed to identify when and where that has ever even happened. Certainly "throughout European history" is NOT where it ever happened.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Percy writes: Regarding John and the miracles specifically, I think I've already explained this. The suspension of natural laws renders it false immediately. So its just incredulity that natural laws can be suspended? Yes, all this is just an argument from incredulity, not worth a minute of the time spent on it. Wouldn't matter how much testimony John recorded of all the miracles Jesus did, they are a priori dismissed by this presupposition that "the suspension of natural laws renders [all such claims] false." John's evidence or any evidence at all in favor of miracles is absolutely pre-empted. So let the honest people who are capable of recognizing when evidence overthrows their prejudices make use of John's evidence and not bother with the percies.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The claim for Genesis as evidence isn't just that it is something that was written, but that it was inspired by God.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I've characterized miracles in a variety of similar ways. Miracles are impossible. Miracles are a suspension of the laws of physics. An unwillingness to believe in the nonexistent is not incredulity. It's being realistic. And demanding evidence derived as directly as possible from reality is being rigorous. I don't know why EvC continues with this pretense at debate when obviously there is nothing anyone could say on the other side of this sort of declaration that could possibly be persuasive to you. As for miracles being a suspension of the laws of physics, of course. God created the laws of physics, He can suspend them. But again there is no point to such a discussion.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Nevertheless the claim is that Genesis, as well as all the other books of the Bible, was inspired by God, and lots of us believe it in spite of the standard EvC debunkery.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The argument about evidence goes back to my pointing out that the apostle John said at the end of his gospel that he had described many things Jesus had done so that people could believe in Him and have eternal life through Him. He described many miracles, suspensions of the natural law, as his evidence. This of course IS evidence. He witnessed miracles and reported on them. All a confirmed denier of miracles can say is that obviously John is crazy or he's lying. There's nothing about the man to suggest he's doing anything but telling the truth, but the confirmed debunker believes otherwise anyway. So some of us are capable of being persuaded by accounts of miracles. Good for us. There's no point even in talking to the others, they have nothing to say.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Describing somebody's argument as worthless is not a proposal of censorship.
Sheesh. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I've given up trying to convince anybody here of anything. Convincing someone who says miracles are flat impossible in the teeth of John's many descriptions just shows the futility of debate at EvC.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There is never only one correct point of view That's ridiculous.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Blithering nonsense.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sheer craziness.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You're the perfect moderator for EvC Phat, I give you that.
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