|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,889 Year: 4,146/9,624 Month: 1,017/974 Week: 344/286 Day: 0/65 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Yes they do. They go to a fireworks show because they expect to see something they've seen before. Try advertising a fireworks show and then doing nothing for two thousand years.
People dont gather to watch fireworks based on evidence that gunpowder makes colorful explosions. Phat writes:
No they don't. Hope of future fireworks doesn't hold a candle to actual present fireworks.
They gather due to the belief that unity strengthens future hope. Phat writes:
They voted for Trump based on stupidity.
They voted for Trump, as an example, based on hope.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I think He was definitely here to drum up support for Judaism (the spirit, not the letter). And the people who wrote about him definitely made show business an aspect, or they needn't have mentioned the miracles at all.
... I would argue that Jesus was not here to put on a show or to drum up support for a religious movement. Phat writes:
It isn't always about money. Look at Trump.
... if there is no money in it, few would be as fanatical as Paul was with no hope of an entitlement due to their efforts. Phat writes:
Hoping for the wrong things is not good.
Granted it was stupid but it was still hope.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
How do you know that your fundamentalist friends aren't the ones who have departed from the faith?
My fundamentalist Christian friends urge me to be careful or I will commit the error found in 1 Timothy 4:1.
quote:
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
How is that even possible?
If so, we first need o define what The faith is.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
All I propose is that we should be good to each other. That's something we should be doing with or without any religious considerations, with or without any God.
In which case so is your proposal. Phat writes:
It isn't fiction. There is no evidence. I don't know why you're so fixated on evidence that you pretend to have it when you don't.
The issue is that we dont know...not this fiction you propose that we have found evidence not to believe.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I didn't say that absence of evidence = probability of zero. If you find a dead body in the living room without a mark on it, the probability that it died in a train wreck is low. The probability that God did it is even lower because there really are trains.
Sounds as if you agree with ringo in my ongoing argument that absence of evidence=probability of zero.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You picked a fine time to take an interest in evidence.
It would be nice to see some evidence of the intentions and motivations of the writers.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That seems to be backwards. How can you know the intentions and honesty of the messenger without knowing whether the message is true or false? What other evidence of the messenger's character do you have?
If the intentions and honesty and credibility of the writer of that sign are shown, I might be more likely to believe the truth and value of the sign.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So Faith's enthusiasm is evidence that creationism is true? I don't think so.
If the messenger believes that the message is true and has great value, that belief alone is evidence of the possible truth and value of the message. Phat writes:
He claimed that he did. Many Christians today claim that they did but if there is no change in their behavior - and there often isn't - then the claim is empty. Did Paul really change? Or was he just the same jerk with a different agenda?
Look at Paul. Did he get blinded? Did he experience a great change in his life? Phat writes:
What reason do we have to think that he did? Did he convey Jesus' message accurately?
Did he have integrity? Phat writes:
There are messages older than Paul's that have survived. Are the Iliad and the Odyssey true?
It certainly appears that his message has survived the test of time. If, on the other hand he was selling messages out of the back trunk of his camel, they likely would have long ago been ignored.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
How is that obvious?
The Gospels were obviously written with the intent that they be taken as historical.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
They talk about miracles. Historical accounts don't talk about miracles.
The style in which they are written gives no indication that the accounts are anything but historical. GDR writes:
So does a lot of fiction. Take The Day of the Jackal as an example.
The beginning of Luke essentially states that the accounts are to be taken as historical.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
But how would you determine whether it "actually happened"? Your claim in Message 1010 was that, "The style in which they are written gives no indication that the accounts are anything but historical." In fact, the style in which they were written, including the description of miracles, doesn't distinguish them from fiction such as the Iliad and the Odyssey. Some of the events may have "actually happened" but that's no guarantee that the miraculous ones did.
A miracle would be historical if it actually happened.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
kbertsche writes:
So somebody might have come to Jesus for healing and He failed? Doesn't non-repeatability kind of dilute the notion of divinity?
Miracles, by definition, are one-off events which can’t be repeated on cue.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
There can be evidence that an unexplained event happened. There can not be evidence that it was a miracle.
Is a given event declared a miracle by consensus or strictly by evidence?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Yes, that's the problem - too much certainty. Some people require a belief in at least some form of certainty. It was certain that the earth was flat. It was certain that the earth moved around the sun. It was certain that all life forms were instantaneously created in their present form. All certain. All wrong. And look at all of the people throughout history who were so certain of their convictions that they were prepared to kill anybody who disagreed. Better to be uncertain and not wrong.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024