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Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Modern Democratic Socialized Capitalism is not Evil | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
First we start with these basic definitions:
Sections underlined and in italics are for emphasis.
quote: The only working version of communism I am aware of were the Israeli Kubbutzes (traditionally collective communities in Israel that were based on agriculture). So far, I know of no nation where the means of production were actually owned in common. What we have in so-called communist countries are oligarchies:
quote: Oligarchies are not limited to "communist" countries, but to kingdoms and other totalitarian tyrannical governments. (Iran, Libya, Syria, N Korea, etc). What is evil is the totalitarian tyrannical governments and the oppression of the people. Thus the common (ignorant) fear of communism is more appropriately directed at oligarchies. Especially here in the US where large corporations are taking over government.
quote: While no nation I know of is purely socialist in economic structure, there are a number of nations that have various levels of public ownership of things plus various levels of collective or cooperative ownership and some citizen owned equity. This applies to the US, Britain, France, Norway, Sweden, etc Public ownership generally applies to things for the general public welfare (healthcare, utilities, roads, police protection, fire protection, national protection, etc.). Collective or cooperative or citizen ownership applies to those corporations or institutions (worker owned cooperatives, for example) that operate democratically for public good or for profit, or both (charities?). In practice all countries with socialist institutions operate economically with capitalistic systems. What distinguishes socialism from communism then is:
Thus you can have democratic, socialized capitalistic countries (US, Britain, France, Norway, Sweden, etc)
quote: In pure capitalistic systems, corporations are oligarchies (power rests with a small number of people) and only the owners get rich (ie becomes plutocracy). The more the economic system reflects pure capitalism the larger the income gap gets between the owners and the workers, because the owners make the decisions on the operation of the companies. The US is NOT a socialist country, in spite of having many socialist institutions, because not all means of production are democratically controlled collective corporations. It IS a socialized, democratic, capitalist country with many oligarchic corporations. There are many countries that are more socialized than the US, but few that are as dominated by oligarchic corporations. Final definition:
quote: This applies to corporations (which the republicans claim are people), especially large corporations, and is the ultimate result of pure capitalism as the motive is operation for profit not for people. The evil of oligarchies and the totalitarian tyrannical control by sociopath management is an inevitable end result of pure capitalism. Just as socialized people are better members of society than sociopaths, socialized capitalism - with democratically controlled management - is better than sociopath oligarchies. It may be possible to reign in sociopath oligarchies with taxation systems that then direct the tax money to the benefit of the people and alleviate the worst effects of sociopathic oligarchy management, but experience shows it is temporary at best. It is time for corporations to become democratically operated institutions. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : ..by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
So far, I know of no nation where the means of production were actually owned in common. I don't see how this would ever be possible. Humans by nature would never be content to be equal to their neighbor and with no desire to ever get ahead. ... I agree, hence communism is a dead issue.
... Oligharcies exist and have existed because of this fact about human nature. We are a competitive lot. But this is not the only alternative. In governments we have democracies and oligarchies, and by and large people fare better under democracies. The same holds for corporations -- they can be oligarchies or democracies, and there are many examples of democratically controlled corporations that compete in the marketplace with the oligarchic corporations.
quote: Seventh largest economy with co-ops "typically more economically resilient than many other forms of enterprise, with twice the number of co-operatives (80%) surviving their first five years compared with other business ownership models (41%).[5]" -- Sounds like a pretty successful approach to doing business. As pertains to socialism, these are worker owned and managed entities. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
ignore it at your peril.
Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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RAZD writes: ignore it at your peril. Wow, that could have come out of Faith's mouth. Ignoring it here has given us today's republican congress that caters only to the rich (see new tax plan), and they in turn have given us Trump. If you don't think that is something to be concerned about, then enjoy it.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Oligarchies exist because SOME people want to get ahead of their neighbours. They're also profitable... For some. At the expense of others. Would you want a vaccine that benefited 1% of the population but made the other 99% sicker? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Yeah, oligarchies exist because some people want to get ahead ... ... and some people are sociopaths that don't care diddly about other people. Not surprisingly capitalism appears to selects for sociopaths to run ruthless companies, as they are disproportionately represented.
... and also because they work well at doing that. ... like I said, sociopaths prosper under capitalism. Oligarchies exist because rich and powerful people are remarkably effective at getting their way and suppressing poor people. Again, the recent tax bill for example, through corrupting the republican party. Read Howard Zinn for starters. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
So now you're going to stalk me because I don't jump to your tune?
What is your route for going about it? And what's stopping you? Raising peoples awareness for starters. Like yours. Because you are (a) in denial about the value of democracy v oligarchy and (b) your actual value. Just because you make more than other people and are comfortable in your economic situation, because you are doing better than those on minimum wage. Curiously, I would have thought that was self evident. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Also, there are perfectly normal people who go all amoral when making business decisions. It's like "It's just business!" is supposed to be some bullshit phrase where you don't have to act morally, or something. I dunno, it's weird.
Not surprisingly capitalism appears to selects for sociopaths to run ruthless companies, as they are disproportionately represented. It's a lot easier to make amoral business decisions when you don't have morals to begin with. So we agree that capitalism rewards sociopathic behavior in running companies, and whether or not they were originally sociopathic or became sociopathic in the running of a company is not really relevant, other than that the second could be curable.
Oligarchies exist because rich and powerful people are remarkably effective at getting their way and suppressing poor people. Oligarchies are also an effective way to run a business. Curiously effectiveness does not necessarily equal good or equitable. A Roman galley powered by slaves is an effective machine. A Greek one powered by cooperation of soldiers/volunteers is also an effective machine.
Because you are (a) in denial about the value of democracy v oligarchy Where did I deny that? Well I kinda get that impression every time you say things like "Oligarchies are also an effective way to run a business" and (Message 96) "I think another part of it is that it's harder to get a bunch of people to agree and take responsibility for everything than it is to just have one motherfucker in charge of the whole thing."
I think that was supposed to be me being in denial of my actual value. It's not that I deny it, its that I don't care about it. Well, that's one way to resolve cognitive dissonance.
That's a lie. You are free to think so. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Sure, but it determines success. Don't you think oligarchies are more effective than co-ops, be it good or bad? Isn't that a part of why they've been more successful? Depends on your definitions of effective and success. Compare Oligarchy Health Insurance in the US with socialist Health Care in Canada. Do they make more money? Yes. Does that make them more effective? Do they do a better job of providing healthcare? No. Does that make them more successful?
Dude, I'm so convinced. It is time for corporations to become democratically operated institutions. Here's my questions: What is your route for going about it? ... Education, political advocating, raising people's awareness, communication, demonstrations, etc
... And what's stopping you? What makes you think I'm stopped. Or that it will happen overnight? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Oligarchies do more business than co-ops and so they are more successful. The question is why. Your explanation is basically that people are evil. ... Not quite, capitalism is sociopathic and attracts sociopaths. There is no room in prConsider ofit for empathy. Why are they more successful? Consider their massive ad and propaganda campaign against socialism, their purchase of government officials\reps\etc, and the fact that the average american is ill informed and gullible. Co-ops are less likely to blow their horn and advocate for more co-ops, but everyone seems to buy into the idea that any new business needs to have an owner/boss and an oligarchic organization. Try getting a loan to start a new business. There is a systemic bias to oligarchic organizations.
How's that working out for you? Well enough. Athens wasn't built in a day, but it was built through democratic process. Here in town we have a cooperative venture that acts as an incubator for new business, regardless of organization, to provide help getting started. It is a big success. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Here in town we have a cooperative venture that acts as an incubator for new business, regardless of organization, to provide help getting started. It is a big success. Most of these are involved in the food industry, with fully certified inspected kitchens to help them get started. We also have an artist district that is tax free. So I am working with some other residents to build a Town Solar/wind/water Power system, initially to power just the Town buildings, but capable of expanding to service people in town. This has already been done in several places, so we are not inventing anything here. This would also allow people who don't have suitable locations on their property to participate by investing in panels. We also have a lot of historic buildings, so they could obtain solar power without panels on the buildiings. And I have started working with the same people to set up a Town community internet service, initially to provide free internet in the town core, but capable of expanding to service people in town. Again this has already been done elsewhere. We figure that if we can provide cheap dependable power and internet services that businesses will find the town an attractive place to set up. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Now I think he overstates some of the historical aspects, but the message is clear socialism + democracy + capitalistic economy Works. There are many examples of working socialistic capitalistic democracies. Note: I was most surprised by the Catalan history, and that enriches my understanding of the dispute between the Catalans and the Spanish government. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Oligarchies do more business than co-ops and so they are more successful. ... Only because of sheer numbers. When they are compared on businesses in the same market the cooperatives do better. And they certainly are better work environments for the workers.
... I'm saying that from a business perspective, oligarchies work better. Which is just your opinion. Heavily biased by your personal opinion of what "works better" means. Take any company you like and replace the oligarchy hierarchy management with a democratically elected hierarchy, where all the people are doing the same jobs, can you honestly say that one is better than the other? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Can you provide evidence for those two statements? quote: Is an obvious one. Less known is
quote: These continue to grow and expand because they work, because they are better corporation models that give back to society rather than take take take. The cooperatives reduce unemployment and improve their local economy via feedback from cooperatives to the society. They exist because they are successful. But the real evidence is in the initial descriptions on this thread:
quote: That to me says they do better in one on one comparisons.
quote: Reading through these you will see that the best environments allow the individual worker to have input/say in how he participates, while the worst environments are dictatorial. A worker cooperative by definition involves workers in decisions that involve their work environment, while oligarchies by definition are dictatorial at some level such that workers would not have the same degrees of input. Similar to citizens in countries that are either democratic (social involvement) or oligarchic (dictatorial). Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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