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Author Topic:   Modern Democratic Socialized Capitalism is not Evil
RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 1 of 32 (824699)
12-02-2017 2:06 PM


First we start with these basic definitions:

Sections underlined and in italics are for emphasis.

quote:
Communism ... is the philosophical, social, political and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money[3][4] and the state.[5][6]

The only working version of communism I am aware of were the Israeli Kubbutzes (traditionally collective communities in Israel that were based on agriculture).

So far, I know of no nation where the means of production were actually owned in common. What we have in so-called communist countries are oligarchies:

quote:
Oligarchy ... is a form of power structure in which power rests with a small number of people. These people might be distinguished by nobility, wealth, family ties, education or corporate, religious or military control. Such states are often controlled by families who typically pass their influence from one generation to the next, but inheritance is not a necessary condition for the application of this term.

Throughout history, oligarchies have often been tyrannical, relying on public obedience or oppression to exist. Aristotle pioneered the use of the term as a synonym for rule by the rich,[4] for which another term commonly used today is plutocracy.


Oligarchies are not limited to "communist" countries, but to kingdoms and other totalitarian tyrannical governments. (Iran, Libya, Syria, N Korea, etc).

What is evil is the totalitarian tyrannical governments and the oppression of the people.

Thus the common (ignorant) fear of communism is more appropriately directed at oligarchies. Especially here in the US where large corporations are taking over government.

quote:
Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production,[10] as well as the political theories and movements associated with them.[11] Social ownership may refer to forms of public, collective or cooperative ownership, or to citizen ownership of equity.[12] There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them,[13] though social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms.[5][14][15]

While no nation I know of is purely socialist in economic structure, there are a number of nations that have various levels of public ownership of things plus various levels of collective or cooperative ownership and some citizen owned equity.

This applies to the US, Britain, France, Norway, Sweden, etc

Public ownership generally applies to things for the general public welfare (healthcare, utilities, roads, police protection, fire protection, national protection, etc.).

Collective or cooperative or citizen ownership applies to those corporations or institutions (worker owned cooperatives, for example) that operate democratically for public good or for profit, or both (charities?).

In practice all countries with socialist institutions operate economically with capitalistic systems.

What distinguishes socialism from communism then is:

  1. compatible with democratic government
  2. democratic control of production
  3. several varieties of ownership, public, collective and private
  4. compatible with capitalistic systems

Thus you can have democratic, socialized capitalistic countries (US, Britain, France, Norway, Sweden, etc)

quote:
Capitalism is an economic system and an ideology based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.[1][2][3] Characteristics central to capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labor, voluntary exchange, a price system and competitive markets.[4][5] In a capitalist market economy, decision-making and investment are determined by the owners of the means of production in financial and capital markets, whereas prices and the distribution of goods are mainly determined by competition in the market.[6][7]

In pure capitalistic systems, corporations are oligarchies (power rests with a small number of people) and only the owners get rich (ie becomes plutocracy). The more the economic system reflects pure capitalism the larger the income gap gets between the owners and the workers, because the owners make the decisions on the operation of the companies.

The US is NOT a socialist country, in spite of having many socialist institutions, because not all means of production are democratically controlled collective corporations. It IS a socialized, democratic, capitalist country with many oligarchic corporations. There are many countries that are more socialized than the US, but few that are as dominated by oligarchic corporations.

Final definition:

quote:
sociopath

noun, Psychiatry.
1. a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.


This applies to corporations (which the republicans claim are people), especially large corporations, and is the ultimate result of pure capitalism as the motive is operation for profit not for people.

The evil of oligarchies and the totalitarian tyrannical control by sociopath management is an inevitable end result of pure capitalism.

Just as socialized people are better members of society than sociopaths, socialized capitalism - with democratically controlled management - is better than sociopath oligarchies.

It may be possible to reign in sociopath oligarchies with taxation systems that then direct the tax money to the benefit of the people and alleviate the worst effects of sociopathic oligarchy management, but experience shows it is temporary at best.

It is time for corporations to become democratically operated institutions.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : ..


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 12-02-2017 2:23 PM RAZD has responded
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 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 7:09 PM RAZD has responded
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AdminPhat
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From: Denver,Colorado USA
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(1)
Message 2 of 32 (824701)
12-02-2017 2:20 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Modern Democratic Socialized Capitalism is not Evil thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 3 of 32 (824702)
12-02-2017 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
12-02-2017 2:06 PM


Common Ownership
So far I know of no nation where the means of production were actually owned in common.
I don't see how this would ever be possible. Humans by nature would never be content to be equal to their neighbor and with no desire to ever get ahead. Oligharcies exist and have existed because of this fact about human nature. We are a competitive lot.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2017 2:06 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 4 of 32 (824706)
12-02-2017 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
12-02-2017 2:23 PM


Re: Common Ownership
So far, I know of no nation where the means of production were actually owned in common.
I don't see how this would ever be possible. Humans by nature would never be content to be equal to their neighbor and with no desire to ever get ahead. ...

I agree, hence communism is a dead issue.

... Oligharcies exist and have existed because of this fact about human nature. We are a competitive lot.

But this is not the only alternative. In governments we have democracies and oligarchies, and by and large people fare better under democracies.

The same holds for corporations -- they can be oligarchies or democracies, and there are many examples of democratically controlled corporations that compete in the marketplace with the oligarchic corporations.

quote:
A cooperative (also known as co-operative, co-op, or coop) is "an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly-owned and democratically-controlled enterprise".[1]

Research published by the Worldwatch Institute found that in 2012 approximately one billion people in 96 countries had become members of at least one cooperative.[2] The turnover of the largest three hundred cooperatives in the world reached $2.2 trillion – which, if they were to be a country, it would make them the seventh largest.[3][need quotation to verify]

One dictionary defines a cooperative as "a jointly owned enterprise engaging in the production or distribution of goods or the supplying of services, operated by its members for their mutual benefit, typically organized by consumers or farmers".[4] Cooperative businesses are typically more economically resilient than many other forms of enterprise, with twice the number of co-operatives (80%) surviving their first five years compared with other business ownership models (41%).[5] Cooperatives frequently have social goals which they aim to accomplish by investing a proportion of trading profits back into their communities. As an example of this, in 2013, retail co-operatives in the UK invested 6.9% of their pre-tax profits in the communities in which they trade as compared with 2.4% for other rival supermarkets.[6]

The International Co-operative Alliance was the first international association formed (1895) by the cooperative movement.[citation needed] It includes the World Council of Credit Unions. A second organization formed later in Germany: the International Raiffeisen Union. In the United States, the National Cooperative Business Association (NCBA) serves as the sector's oldest national membership association. It is dedicated to ensuring that cooperative businesses have the same opportunities as other businesses operating in the country and that consumers have access to cooperatives in the marketplace. A U.S. National Cooperative Bank formed in the 1970s.[7] By 2004 a new association focused on worker co-ops was founded, the United States Federation of Worker Cooperatives.

Since 2002 cooperatives and credit unions could be distinguished on the Internet by use of a .coop domain. Since 2014, following International Cooperative Alliance's introduction of the Cooperative Marque, ICA cooperatives and WOCCU credit unions can also be identified by a coop ethical consumerism label.


Seventh largest economy with co-ops "typically more economically resilient than many other forms of enterprise, with twice the number of co-operatives (80%) surviving their first five years compared with other business ownership models (41%).[5]" -- Sounds like a pretty successful approach to doing business.

As pertains to socialism, these are worker owned and managed entities.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 32 (824715)
12-02-2017 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
12-02-2017 2:06 PM


quote:

So far, I know of no nation where the means of production were actually owned in common. What we have in so-called communist countries are oligarchies:

Forget about production.

What about land being common property of all?

Let businesses lease it (for free?): "use it, or loose it"

I have a journal article I was ready about agricultural production. The Soviet leaders (during the time just after the premier visited the United States in 1959) liked our agricultural methods, and used them to improve production. They felt we were superior in every way except the land and business ownership.

They increased yields tremendously after incorporating our methodology.

Land ownership is ruining the world.

In so many ways, where to begin.

One area.

High speed rail is just too expensive because of al the expensive land in places where the population is thick.

Another example: Every inch of land is claimed in every city and town. High lot prices are ruining the economy. Who says space should be claimed by people? Absurd.

USE IT OR...LOOSE IT!

China has been a shocking success due to the government having greater control over land than in (especially) India or the United States. Especially the former.

I need to check out my journal and see if the recent story is on line.

EDIT: Under government ownership,people still will be able to be paid by the government. Just like the giant Ag corporations pay people.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


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Tangle
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Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 6 of 32 (824731)
12-02-2017 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
12-02-2017 2:06 PM


RAZD writes:

The evil of oligarchies and the totalitarian tyrannical control by sociopath management is an inevitable end result of pure capitalism.

This is a pure rant. You've lost objectivity. Take a step back.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
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From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
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Message 7 of 32 (824737)
12-02-2017 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by LamarkNewAge
12-02-2017 4:25 PM


This part of your rant is actually urging folks to use land... in areas that are densely populated. Which suggests that most of the land is either heavily populated or near heavily populated and that folks are not just whining when they don't want it used for a railroad. I hope that there is some sarcasm here, but even I cannot separate the "Poe" from the "buffoon". I'm going with sarcasm, which would be giving you the benefit of the doubt.

China has been a shocking success due to the government having greater control over land than in (especially) India or the United States. Especially the former.

Exactly what are you advocating here? Just how much like China would you like to see the US economic system become? Yes, I am impressed with China's rail system. But China also seems to be neck and neck with the US when it comes to generating extreme ranges of income between the well-off and the poverty-stricken. Plenty of countries to better than the US and China in taking care of their populations.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


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RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 8 of 32 (824744)
12-03-2017 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tangle
12-02-2017 7:09 PM


ignore it at your peril.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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Tangle
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From: UK
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(1)
Message 9 of 32 (824761)
12-03-2017 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by RAZD
12-03-2017 9:13 AM


RAZD writes:

ignore it at your peril.

Wow, that could have come out of Faith's mouth.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 12-03-2017 9:13 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
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Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 10 of 32 (824766)
12-03-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
12-02-2017 2:23 PM


Re: Common Ownership
Phat writes:

Humans by nature would never be content to be equal to their neighbor and with no desire to ever get ahead. Oligharcies exist and have existed because of this fact about human nature.


Oligarchies exist because SOME people want to get ahead of their neighbours.
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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11841
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 11 of 32 (824800)
12-03-2017 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
12-02-2017 2:06 PM


It is time for corporations to become democratically operated institutions.

What is your route for going about it? And what's stopping you?


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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11841
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 12 of 32 (824801)
12-03-2017 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
12-03-2017 1:26 PM


Re: Common Ownership
Oligarchies exist because SOME people want to get ahead of their neighbours.

They're also profitable...


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 13 of 32 (824818)
12-03-2017 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tangle
12-03-2017 12:36 PM


RAZD writes:

ignore it at your peril.

Wow, that could have come out of Faith's mouth.

Ignoring it here has given us today's republican congress that caters only to the rich (see new tax plan), and they in turn have given us Trump.

If you don't think that is something to be concerned about, then enjoy it.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2017 12:36 PM Tangle has responded

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 14 of 32 (824819)
12-03-2017 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
12-03-2017 6:45 PM


Re: Common Ownership
Oligarchies exist because SOME people want to get ahead of their neighbours.

They're also profitable...

For some. At the expense of others.

Would you want a vaccine that benefited 1% of the population but made the other 99% sicker?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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nwr
Member
Posts: 5544
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 15 of 32 (824820)
12-04-2017 12:31 AM


I'm not seeing the point
You would need to sell this idea to a significant bunch of Republican voters. I'm doubting that the kind of argument you are using can be effective.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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