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Author | Topic: The Trump Presidency | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
As if there was any doubt, a New York Times survey of 170 members of the Presidents and Executive Politics section of the American Political Science Association found that Trump is the worst American president of all time: How Does Trump Stack Up Against the Best and Worst Presidents?. He has three years to climb out of gutter.
--Percy
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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When he talks to Mueller, he will perjure himself eight times before Mueller gets his coat off.
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
An article on today's CNN's website, Trump is helping to undermine US democracy. That's just what Russia wants, gets it wrong when describing how the Mueller indictment says "unwitting" persons interacted with Russians:
quote: That's not what the indictment said. I now quote from the indictment
quote: The indictment says, "unwitting individuals associated with the Trump Campaign," not "Trump campaign aides." A campaign aide is an assistant to an important person in the campaign, not "unwitting individuals associated with the Trump Campaign." This section of the indictment is definitely not referring to Donald Jr. or Kushner or Sessions or Popadopoulos and so forth, and definitely not to Trump himself. It is referring to ordinary rank and file workers for the Trump campaign. The indictment also includes "other political activists" among the unwitting. This claim by Trump supporters that the indictment absolves Trump and everyone in his campaign of colluding with Russians should be countered at every opportunity, because it is an obvious and shameful misrepresentation of what the indictment actually says. --Percy
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
It's early. These are just the first feints in a long term game. There are two more significant CNN stories, one showing Mueller looking into Kushner's foreign financing and the other charging a lawyer making false statements to Federal Authorities.
Both open the door to continued exploration of Trump Inc. finances.
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
The Washington Post also has an article: Son-in-law of Russian businessman to plead guilty to making false statements in Mueller probe. Neither the CNN article nor the Washington Post article is very clear (at least to me), but the information document actually filed by Mueller's office is very clear. It says that Alex Van der Zwaan made false statements to the Special Counsel's Office and agents of the FBI:
The information document is short and to the point and an easier read than either of the two news articles. So why does Mueller care? My guess is that for Mueller the Van der Zwaan lies are just leverage to get him to enter into a plea deal in return for his testimony, but it's unclear why. It is within Mueller's mandate to pursue any illegal activity that comes to his attention in the course of his investigation, so it is possible that this has nothing to do with the Russia scandal and is just related to money laundering committed by Gates and Mannafort that Mueller uncovered during the investigation. But it is also possible that Gates, Mannafort and Van der Zwaan know something about Trump campaign involvement with Russian election meddling. Stay tuned. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Grammar.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
So why does Mueller care? My guess is that Mueller the Van der Zwaan lies are just leverage to get him to enter into a plea deal in return for his testimony, but it's unclear why I've got a couple of guesses. Mueller is making no assumptions about where things will go, so he is following the money. Unlike the assumptions that Republicans might make, and Democrats might wish for, Muller isn't out to indict Trump's associates. He is following the evidence just as he should be. My guess is that this is the low hanging fruit. Things will get a little more heated when he indicts folks he can actually grab and get to talk, and surely that is coming. Secondly, these indictments might get Trump and others off of his case. Mueller is definitely onto something really big and he is getting results that even staunch Trump supporters would have trouble dismissing. Mueller's results are helping to save his job. From a political standpoint, it is also getting harder and harder for Trump to ignore the sanctions passed by Congress and at some point perhaps Congress will do something about that. I am not going to speculate on who is "riding dirty" and what Americans will be caught up in this. But I'm pretty well pleased with what I see Mueller doing so far. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Percy writes: It is within Mueller's mandate to pursue any illegal activity that comes to his attention in the course of his investigation, so it is possible that this has nothing to do with the Russia scandal and is just related to money laundering committed by Gates and Mannafort that Mueller uncovered during the investigation. But it is also possible that Gates, Mannafort and Van der Zwaan know something about Trump campaign involvement with Russian election meddling. That is the real issue, "It is within Mueller's mandate to pursue any illegal activity that comes to his attention in the course of his investigation, so it is possible that this has nothing to do with the Russia scandal and is just related to money laundering committed by Gates and Mannafort that Mueller uncovered during the investigation." and that is the threat to Trump Inc. If Trump Inc can be tied in anyway to Russian money laundering the effects would go way beyond the mere Presidency. That Nation States interfere with the internal politics of other Nation States has never been doubted and that Russia interfered in US internal politics has pretty much been established. What I find amazing though is that Russia thinking "Donald Trump could be the worst possible President of the US so let's push Trump and oppose EVERYBODY but Trump " seems to be bothering il Donald more than the possible effects of money laundering connected to Trump Inc.
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
I just became aware of this report from the Center for American Progress from August 2, 2017: Russiagate: The Depth of Collusion. I quote an email exchange from the report between Rob Goldstone (head of Oui 2 Entertainment that assisted the Trump organization in bringing the 2013 Miss Universe pageant to Russia) and Donald Trump Jr.:
quote: While I've seen this email exchange described before (especially the "I love it" part), I've never seen the actual emails. I find it difficult taking seriously exchanges only indirectly described in news articles. What people actually wrote or said written out in black and white is much more convincing. The report represents that there were actually two campaigns to elect Trump, one by the Trump campaign and one by the Russians. The key question is whether there was any collusion between the two campaigns. Seeing these email excerpts makes much more real to me what the report says next, that this by itself is sufficient evidence that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians:
quote: Yes, this is collusion. Mueller already has enough information to wrap this all up in the language of conspiracy (which is the word used in legal statutes), so he works on to discover the exact extent of Trump campaign involvement regarding campaign aides and Trump himself. I hope he's not expending too much effort on pre-2016 money laundering charges against Gates and Mannafort - I hope that's just leverage for gaining more testimony about Russian collusion. The report is long but makes good reading. It contains much information that we've probably all seen mentions of in news articles, but never in original form and never gathered in one place. It's incredible that it only represents what was publicly known six months ago. Note that the report, though it appears to me to be fact focused, is from a partisan group. The Center for American Progress was founded by John Podesta, chairman of the Clinton campaign and he of the hacked emails that WikiLeaks dribbled out during the 2016 election campaign. --Percy
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
While the meeting took place and it is certain that the intent was to arrange a deal between the Trump campaign and the Russian government it’s not clear that they got any further than the meeting. It doesn’t seem that the Trump campaign got any dirt on Clinton - which is what the Russians offered to get the meeting.
It’s pretty bad - there was an offer of collusion and Trump jr was definitely interested - but we haven’t seen the evidence that there was anything more than talk.
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frako Member (Idle past 336 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
It’s pretty bad - there was an offer of collusion and Trump jr was definitely interested - but we haven’t seen the evidence that there was anything more than talk. Thats why they then followed legal protocol and informed the FBI right? And its also the reason trump immediatly enacted sanction's against these russian oligarchs, and not ignored them since they had 98% support in the senate. Edited by frako, : No reason given.Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
PaulK writes: It’s pretty bad - there was an offer of collusion and Trump jr was definitely interested - but we haven’t seen the evidence that there was anything more than talk. Conspiracy requires little more than talk. Some overt act is required, but that could be anything. Here's the definition of conspiracy from the Cornell law library.
quote: One overt act in this case is the Russian hacking of Podesta and DNC emails. Notice the part about "derivative liability" where each conspirator is responsible for the actions of all other conspirators. Also note that Russiagate: The Depth of Collusion describes the extensiveness of contacts between the Trump campaign and Russia representatives:
quote: --Percy
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
But was there an agreement to commit an illegal act ? The Russians committed illegal acts but you seem to be short on evidence that the Trump campaign agreed to any of them.
This is not to say that there was no agreement, only that the evidence so far made public doesn’t show that.
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frako Member (Idle past 336 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
But was there an agreement to commit an illegal act ? If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its probably not an imp in disguise. Its mostly improbable you will get a a video confession of them agreeing to commit illegal acts. But given the inteligence trump is showing its possible Appart from so many of his close circle being charged, the slip ups of his children on tape, the constant lying If they where perfectly honest they would have reported being approached by foreign agents who wanted to collude with them to the FBI. If trump was not in the Russians pocket he would have enacted those sanctions already. He would not fire 3 lead investigators investigating him.... There is enough circumstantial evidence for me to believe beyond reasonable doubt he is guilty as they come. Edited by frako, : No reason given.Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Yes, this is collusion. Mueller already has enough information to wrap this all up in the language of conspiracy Actually, absent a bit more, this looks like a plot[1] to collude because apparently there was no actual dirt or a furthering of a plot to get dirt, at least that is according to what we've been told about that meeting. Apparently, though, some pretty substantial Russian interests were discussed at the meeting. This was certainly the opportunity for some line crossing if the attendees had any actual way to get the administration to do what the Russians asked. Right now we don't know if an actual plan or agreement was made at that meeting. What we can say is that no patriotic American had any business being in that room unless they were wearing a wire for the FBI. On the other hand, it appears that there were some very patriotic Russians in the room. [1] deliberately using some other word that conspiracy, because there is enough confusion caused by the mixing of legal and colloquial usages of the word. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
PaulK writes: This is not to say that there was no agreement, only that the evidence so far made public doesn’t show that. I guess we can differ on what constitutes an agreement and sufficient evidence, but boiled down this is what does it for me. From the emails between Goldstone and Donald Jr.:
Goldstone: "The Crown prosecutor of Russia...offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary...and be very useful to your father." Donald Jr.: "...I love it..." And then they attended the meeting. There are suspicious things not even in the Russiagate: The Depth of Collusion report. For example, one day after Hillary Clinton announced Tim Kane as her running mate on July 22, Wikileaks began dumping the DNC emails. One hour after the Access Hollywood tape became public on October 7, Wikileaks began dumping the Podesta emails. Russia was the source of all the email hacks - Wikileaks was only the vehicle. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Typo.
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