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Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Religion or Science - How do they compare? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why not? Isn't no unicorns the default position? Isn't no fairies the default position? Isn't innocent until proven guilty the default position? All that I will defend...a point that has been challenged many times---is that No God is not the default position. No is always the position until there is some reason to think yes.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Same with god.
People have no reason to need such creatures (or imaginations). Phat writes:
Many people are wrong.
Arguably, many people do in fact think yes. Phat writes:
On the contrary, most Gods "in the popular imagination" are not your God. Unicorns, fairies, dragons and such imaginary creatures are probably just as common "in the popular imagination" as your imaginary God - and more consistent.
While unicorns and fairies are not part of the popular imagination, God, Creator of all seen and unseen is. Phat writes:
I've asked you this many times and I really wish you would answer it before spouting the same nonsense over and over again: If you can communicate with your God, why is there no sign of the wisdom He's supposedly imparting to you?
Moreover, many believe that such a character can be communicated with... Phat writes:
It's not a referendum. We don't need a majority of opinions to decide whether the earth is flat or round. My point is that there is no majority that thinks or imagines No. The default answer is always No. It is in your own mind too, if you stop and think about it. If I claim that flerbend exists, you won't believe it unless I can show you some reason to believe. You're welcome to your beliefs. Just stop trying to pretend that they "make sense".
Phat writes:
I agree. Idiotic conspiracy theories aren't dying any time soon either. Anti-science sentiments aren't dying any time soon. They should, but they're not. Despite tangles fervant hopes to the contrary, Christianity is not dying a slow death anytime soon. Humans have a two tendencies that are often in conflict: they're curious but they're lazy. They want to know the origin of species but they don't want to put the time in to understand it, so they jump at the chance to "know" that Goddidit.
Phat writes:
Feel free to show us that evidence.
In fact, evidence suggests that the reality of the next decade will provide even more reasons to have a reason or a need for a Creator. Phat writes:
That may be true but that has nothing to do with a "need" for God. I's about fear of reality. It was fear of reality that got us into this situation and some people think that more fear will get us out. Once people begin to face the pains of the future and see the reality of China crushing the US role as global superpower, I predict that at least in the US, Christianity will see a huge upsurge, and the public will again turn to the church to help them get what government will no longer be able to provide. But of course, religion has failed consistently throughout history to solve our problems, hasn't it?
Phat writes:
Then it's their demands that are wrong. With limited money, people will find that logic, reason, and reality won't satisfy their demands...An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's my question to you. If you can't demonstrate the source, how can you decide whether you have "more" wisdom with it than without it? To begin with, how would we even measure this wisdom nor determine its source?An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
It's about erring on the side of caution. You don't go rushing out of the house every morning because it might be on fire. If there is any sign of fire you don't want to ignore it but you don't want to spend your entire life running away from something that doesn't exist either.
But what intrigues me is why your confirmation bias works quite the opposite of mine. Phat writes:
I think most people tend to be hard-wired for jumping to conclusions. In our primitive state that was necessary for survival. But now that we have division of labour and better instrumentation we can afford the time to figure out the right answers. Do you feel as if you are hardwired to disbelieve and to find ever more reasons for doing so?An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
Yes, it's probably a mistake to enter a foot race when you don't have a leg to stand on.
It's probably a mistake to enter into debate about the Bible and God at all.... Faith writes:
You contradict yourself. How would you even know what a Messiah was without the Old Testament? ... the New Testament is necessary to understand the Old, but not the other way around. The whole point of the Old Testament was to point to the Messiah Jesus, as Jesus Himself said. The New Testament without the Old is like The Return of the King without The Fellowship of the Ring. You'd be asking yourself, "What is this Ring and how did a hobbit even get it?"An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If I have a need for a time machine, does that mean I have access to one or that one even exists? it tells me that some of us have a need to believe.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That, of course, is nonsense. If it was true, the USS Enterprise would be parked in orbit above your house and Frodo would be knocking on your door asking for directions to Mordor.
I've heard it said that if you can visualize/imagine it, you can create it. Phat writes:
What I said was, "If I have a need for a time machine, does that mean I have access to one or that one even exists?" My question was not about the theoretical possibility of time travel. It was about whether or not I can get a time machine at Wal-mart. Time Travel Isn't PossibleOr Is It? The same applies to your "need" to believe. The need may be real but that doesn't mean the belief is.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Anybody can author a story. Look at the two examples I gave you. Only a Creator of all seen and unseen could author a story where natural laws were suspended and things were created ex nihilio. And it doesn't take a "Creator of all seen and unseen" to create things. Any advanced alien civilization could create things that we can't even imagine. As for ex nihilo, that has nothing to do with anything I've said.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Haven't you heard that there are more religious people in prisons? ive never seen evidence that religious people are slower than any other regarding moral actions.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
If somebody is fat, is it rude to call them fat? Maybe. But they have no right to be insulted. Calling someone a liar because they express their firmly held views, whether they are right or wrong, is just plain rude....An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
So... if the conclusions you derive are false, which they are, then your belief must be wrongly invested in a false God. And if belief is rightly invested in the revelation of the true Creator God, that revelation is a reliable source of important knowledge about the world among many other things.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Vested interest. Why don't most Bible teachers mention this?An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
It's amazing how "the Fall" can be made up out of thin air - and in complete contradiction to what the Bible actually says. It's amazing how the whole point of the Bible's rescue from the demonic domination after the Fall can be turned into something else entirely.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Of course it does:
The Bible doesn't "actually say" anything that contradicts the Fall,quote:Becoming like God is not a fall. An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
The Bible does say that. I quoted it. You can believe that it doesn't mean what it says but don't pretend that it doesn't say what it says. If you really believe that "knowing good and evil" was an improvement on our original condition, or that the Bible seems to say that... There was no "original condition" that changed. The story explains why human life is what it is. It's about growing up. The "original condition" that you idolize is a state of infantile dependence. Yes, growing up is an improvement.
Faith writes:
We didn't. The whole Bible is the story of people being in touch with their Creator.
... we lost touch with our Creator... Faith writes:
Satan doesn't exist. That's just a copout, passing the buck, an excuse for not taking responsibility for our own actions.
... a benevolent Satan who nevertheless tyrannizes us... Faith writes:
On the contrary, I accept the Bible (and appreciate it) for what it is and for what it says. It's your perversion of the Bible that makes it meaningless. The only meaning you find in the Bible is made-up dogma.
Anything to render the Bible meaningless I guess. Faith writes:
The important thing is that God does. I quoted Him. I'm sure you don't really feel you are "like God"....An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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