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Author | Topic: Religion or Science - How do they compare? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
My question about you conceding was rhetorical. I know you did not concede. That's why after acknowledging that you had made a bad argument, I asked for a different one.
For example someone killing an homosexual cannot get away by saying that he is doing God’s will. He is liable regardless of his religious views. But in this case, a religion has been influential in the way this person sees homosexuals as sinners against God. Have you ever noticed that there are bigots with or without religion? Religion is just an excuse. I don't believe Christianity requires or demands that I treat homosexuals different from the way I tread anyone else. Yes, people did use the Bible to justify things like slavery, but did not slavery exist in cultures that were not Christian or Jewish at all? I simply don't buy the idea that religion, and in particular, Christianity, is even largely responsible for those problems. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I call Faith a liar when she uses willful ignorance as an excuse to believe matters that are factually false and demonstrably false and then assert those beliefs as though they were reality. There is a line between willful ignorance, self-deception, and stupidity, and folks might well disagree regarding how they characterize Faith on a given topic. Your own conclusion is fairly clear, but reasonable minds might well differ. I believe I am slightly slower on the draw than you are, but that still means that I've caught Faith in positions where I believe lying is the appropriate description. I accept that other folks don't reach the same conclusion I do. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Calling someone a liar because they express their firmly held views, whether they are right or wrong, is just plain rude. How would you characterize calling somebody a Nazi because they believe that calling for the razing and destroying of the houses of Jews is anti-Semitic? Perhaps you are defending the indefensible. Yeah, some things are rude, but sometimes you reap the insults that you sow. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It was an issue with SOUTHERN churches, period. LOCAL churches, and with individuals., You can't compare that to INSTITUTIOINAL doctrines. The Southern Baptist Church is an institution. It is currently the 2nd largest Christian denomination. Secondly in size only to the Catholic Church. The Southern Baptist Church, at the time they split away from the larger body, was not just a local church or a few local churches. Your claim is beyond bizarre. I probably would not stick around after making it either. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Southern Baptists are big but they aren't all Baptists and I have been talking about the DOCTRINES of Protestantism I am not required to limit my remarks to your chosen topic. The Southern Baptists are a huge group of Protestants, and as a group they managed to apologize for their racism and support of slavery a mere 23 years ago. I understand that you would want to limit the topic so that evil by Protestants is nonexistent but I am not going to play by those rules. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Of course, you can address any topic you like, but if you make it look like you are addressing my topic it should actually BE my topic. Calling Protestants committing evil off topic does not cover up anything Faith. What I am saying is no more difficult to understand than that. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I simply don't understand why anyone would object to my qualification about rightly handling the evidence so others can verify it. Because your statement is not operative. You are not pointing to any problems with the handling of evidence, you are just blowing smoke. I would also add that it impossible to handle the evidence so that you could do any verification. You cannot even conduct a simple experiment with a protractor, sand and a bucket of water. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Why not accept the truth? The evidence says that the Earth is undeniably far, far older than the mere 10,000 years or less than YEC claims. Obviously, this question is at least somewhat rhetorical. But the simple answer is that she cannot accept those things. For a YEC, all of Christianity rises and sets on the idea that the Bible is literally true and that said truth must be interpreted in only one way. If God did not create the Universe in a week, did not make the first man in one day, and then did not Flood out all of life about 1500 years after that, then Christ is not real and Christianity is fraud. YECs have painted themselves into the tiniest corner using paint that can never dry. There is literally no way out for them. For someone who believes those things, the underpinning of everything is ripped away if a cave painting in Spain is 30,000 years old, or some rock is 4 billion years old, or if some pyramid was really built in 2500 or so BC. In turn astronomy, archaeology, genetics, biology, paleontology, and geology must also be bogus. And if they participate in debates, at least in those which they cannot rig by declaring evidence to be off-limits, they will have to employ bad logic, wishful thinking and denial. What else is left. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
That misses the point. If this world is the result of nothing but mindless particles coming together by chance with no intelligence involved at any point, then our morality is then simply what works for us,(or me). Don't kill folks. Don't hurt your brother. Just how huge a chunk of morality can be developed from a couple of what might be easy to come by precepts. It might even be that there is an evolutionary advantage to concepts like that. I am not sure that the lack of absolutes is completely debilitating. Half of the ten commandments are about man's relationship to his closest neighbors and family. Surely there is more than one source for somthing like that. Obviously, the half of the commandments that relate to God must come from a religion of sorts. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Our morality is based on where we find or joy, contentment and meaning. It is all about the heart. I am not sure I understand what you mean when you distinguish between our heart and our mind here. Describing things as "heart" is not literal thinking. Our heart pumps blood, delivers oxygen and helps remove waste products from our cells. Everything we do is mind driven. Whatever the source of our morality, we can grow emotionally attached to following it. How is that different from morality being about our heart. How does the source matter? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It matters as far as this discussion goes about whether our sense of morality evolved from simply mindlessness or whether there is a cosmic sense of morality that has always existed as a result of pre-exiting intelligence. Yes. Your claim seems to be that a sense of morality is not possible without that pre-existing intelligence. My question to you is why that sense of morality cannot grow out of a sense of duty to one's family, friends, clan or species? I don't believe that atheists are immoral or that atheistic societies must be amoral, but your argument does not seem to leave open any possibility of a non-theistic morality. What is your best defense for your position? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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The material you quoted suggests that morality is universal. What you are adding to that is your belief that it comes from a divine source, and in particular from Jesus Christ, regardless of one's belief system.
So, no argument from you. Just belief. At least that what I think you are espousing. If I've missed something, let me know. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Of course it is about belief. That's all any of us have regardless of our views in answering this question. All I can do is to give the reasons I believe. Arguments of that kind are not helpful in deciding between two alternatives. I am asking for some reasoning if you have it. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Was it the excuse to maintain it for so long? Absolutely. Wrong. It was not "the" excuse. It was "an" excuse to do what folks were already doing. It was also a driving force for those who were already abolitionists and for those who thought slavery was evil primarily because of its effect on white people. My point is that targetting religion does not accurately target the impetus for homophobia. ABE:
Paboss writes: If you knew I did not concede and all you wanted is for me to make a different argument, why not plainly ask for that in the first place I did ask plainly. I'll quote my question here.
NoNukes writes: If you have a case to make after conceding that your original statements don't prove your case, then make it. That's asking for a new argument in plain words. And I note that the concession I mentioned here is about not making your case and not about giving in. Not sure what you are asking me to do? Perhaps my tone was inappropriate? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
If however there is built into creation a moral code that distinguishes right from wrong, or more specifically good from evil then we should ask the question of where does that come from. I don't believe that there was a moral code built into creation because I see no evidence and further, no scripture that dictates any such belief. That's a pretty big if, and it is not one I can accept as the basis for an argument. In fact, what you are actually doing here is assuming the entire question and putting that forth as your premise. Even if I agreed with you, I would reject an argument of that type. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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