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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5583
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 91 of 155 (836051)
07-09-2018 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Percy
06-29-2018 8:19 AM


Most people, including police, should not be going into a gun fight.

So in the Las Vegas massacre, the police should have sat idly by?

This is a position you keep raising, not me. If you're going to associate me with extreme and absurd positions that I've never expressed then I will do the same. You've assuming that guns are the solution to every problem.

No, just a solution to a very specific problem -- solving a dilemma where deadly force is the last or only viable option. Guns don't make good bottle openers. Guns and carpentry don't mix. Guns don't do well for putting out fires. But guns do make for an adequate form of defense.

Police are just people, and guns are just too dangerous to give to people.

Your position infantilizes people and reduces everyone armed to knuckle-dragging troglodytes. Cars are responsible for infinitely higher mortality rate, but that doesn't seem to stop you from driving them.

The odds of a situation needing a gun for self defense and where the gun is actually available to you (if you're at home then the gun and the ammunition are in separate lock boxes, right?) are far lower than that gun being used against you, family or friends.

Most states rightfully have statutes that place the onus and responsibility of the gun on the owner, but there are practical methods to keep a gun secured and still readily accessible within seconds... some gun safes are operated by biometrics such as fingerprints, others a pin pad.

It's Deputy Dawg. Look at the result: senseless police shootings followed by lying and coverups, whose extent we're only just discovering over the last decade with increasing availability of video.

What, like 3% of all police-involved shootings? You keep alluding that I'm being extreme but you're acting as if the overwhelming officer-involved shootings are unjustified when they clearly are not. Perhaps your understanding of what legally constitutes homicide versus justifiable homicide is terribly skewed. Based on your bizarre and irrational fear of guns, I would wager that it is.

Arm a million people, which is what we've done with police officers, and it is statistically guaranteed that a certain number will go off each day, some while pointed at people.

And there is a statistical propensity for people falling down stairs... or ovens catching homes on fire... or people crashing their cars. Again, it's weighing the utility of something versus the liability of it.

Take away their guns and all these problems melt away.

Uh, no, take guns away and you're left defenseless in a deadly force encounter in a profession where lots of people want you dead.

I'm just reading the news.

Ah, well, that explains a lot actually.

I don't think we should arm minorities either.

Why not? They might need protection from cops

Police are people just like you and me, and your average person should not be carrying a deadly weapon. Eight or nine hundred hours of training doesn't change that.

You already concede that specialized units should be afforded the opportunity to carry weapons so what really is the difference if training means fuck all to you? Should the military be disarmed too? When, in your estimation, is a gun a necessary evil? I understand you don't like guns, I understand you think they cause more problems than they solve, but surely there must be instances in your mind that they be a necessity.

I'm the one saying cops are good guys who are woefully unprepared for the variety of confrontations they face. Adding a gun to the mix only makes things worse.

So then what should get them up to standard?


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Percy, posted 06-29-2018 8:19 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by NoNukes, posted 07-09-2018 9:54 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 95 by Percy, posted 07-09-2018 2:43 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5583
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 92 of 155 (836052)
07-09-2018 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by ringo
06-29-2018 11:48 AM


And the police have the same problems as the society they inhabit. When civilians have bad attitudes toward guns, so do the police.
Your society believes it can protect itself with guns. Your police believe they can protect themselves with guns. Your bad guys believe they can protect themselves with guns. But there often comes a point when "protecting yourself" becomes attacking somebody else. The police don't seem to be any better at making that distinction than the average citizen.

Yeah, I don't disagree with any of that. There's no question that if guns were never invented that homicide by guns would never exist. The problem that seems to be glibly overlooked though is the fact that guns DO exist. In light of that, I'm all ears for how an unarmed subject can effectively deal with a person armed with gun. Until that time, and short of the univention of the gun, we're just gonna have to deal with reality as it is... not as we want it to be.

As to your well-phrased analysis of when "defending" becomes "attacking," that goes for anything really. You can substitute gun with fist, pepper spray, baton, or anything else designed for protection that can also be used to attack. Of course, that's also why we have laws that delineate between justified and unjustified.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by ringo, posted 06-29-2018 11:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 11:42 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 93 of 155 (836067)
07-09-2018 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Hyroglyphx
07-09-2018 1:50 AM


So in the Las Vegas massacre, the police should have sat idly by?

Didn't Percy address this? The swat team would have guns. The beat cop would not.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-09-2018 1:50 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15127
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(3)
Message 94 of 155 (836069)
07-09-2018 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Hyroglyphx
07-09-2018 2:16 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:

You can substitute gun with fist, pepper spray, baton, or anything else designed for protection that can also be used to attack.


The difference is that fists, pepper spray, batons, etc. are seldom fatal. When the probable result of your action is irreversible, the decision ought to be taken a lot more seriously.

A hero is somebody who risks his own life, not somebody else's.

We have too many police shootings of innocent victims. If taking the decision to shoot more seriously results in more police officers being killed, that's a reality we should be prepared for.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-09-2018 2:16 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2018 6:21 PM ringo has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17655
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 95 of 155 (836085)
07-09-2018 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Hyroglyphx
07-09-2018 1:50 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:

Most people, including police, should not be going into a gun fight.

So in the Las Vegas massacre, the police should have sat idly by?

As NoNukes noted in Message 93, I think I addressed this already. Your messages mostly just reply to your own slant on what I said while ignoring what I actually said. I don't think you need me in this conversation.

Quoting myself from an earlier message, "Rank and file police in most jurisdictions shouldn't have guns. That's my position. Rebut that."

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Typo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-09-2018 1:50 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2018 6:29 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17655
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 96 of 155 (836159)
07-11-2018 3:03 PM


The police *are* out to get you
I'm writing not about police shootings but about why police are able to get away with shootings. First, here's a video of a police stop of a railroad employee. There's no audio for the first 30 seconds:

And here are some quotes from the opinion piece An Arkansas man complained about police abuse. Then town officials ruined his life.. They explain why police know they can usually get away with behavior like this:

quote:
I was alerted to this particular story by a former police officer who now advocates criminal-justice reform...I asked him: In his experience, how common is this sort of thing? His response:

This is very common in policing. Looking back on my career, I realize just how often I acted similarly and didn’t even realize it. It was subconscious. I was trained and subtly incentivized to do so. You intentionally create conflict and manufacture noncompliance in order to build your stop into an arrest situation. Because that’s what generations of law enforcers who have been steeped in a fear-based, comply or else, us-vs.-them mind-set do. They arrest people. Arrests are a primary measure of productivity and gives the appearance your department has solved a problem.

Most aggressive cops have honed this to an art. They are savvy, know exactly how to weaponize numerous petty laws, ordinances, use-of-force policy and procedure against citizens.


Got that? Some cops become expert at manufacturing noncompliance, or whatever else they need to justify their actions.

Read the opinion piece for the whole story, but summarizing briefly, when the poor railroad worker went to the police station to complain he was charged with two misdemeanors. The police lied to the public about what was on the video, local prosecutors ignored what was on the video, and charges were pressed. The poor railroad worker was eventually acquitted, but the police hid the video from public view for months and months. A persistent local reporter brought it to light.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by NoNukes, posted 07-11-2018 3:41 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 101 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2018 6:40 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17655
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 97 of 155 (836162)
07-11-2018 3:33 PM


Another Example of Police Abuse
This happened last year, so everyone probably still remembers when nurse Alex Wubbels refused a policeman's orders to draw blood from an unconscious victim of a car crash. The policeman assaulted, handcuffed and arrested nurse Wubbels, here's the video, it's shocking:

What most people don't know is the aftermath, and it's good news. Nurse Wubbels was released without charge. The arresting officer was fired and his supervisor was demoted two ranks. Nurse Wubbels settled with Salt Lake City for $500,000, which she's using to promote making body-cam footage publicly available.

But what would have happened had there been no body cam footage. The police officer likely would have made up whatever story he needed to justify the arrest (remember, they're expert at that), and nurse Wubbels would have been charged instead of released.

It's just more evidence that too many police are yahoos who abuse their power and who certainly shouldn't have guns.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Typo.


Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Taq, posted 07-16-2018 2:30 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 155 (836165)
07-11-2018 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Percy
07-11-2018 3:03 PM


Re: The police *are* out to get you
Got that? Some cops become expert at manufacturing noncompliance, or whatever else they need to justify their actions.

One problem is us. Yes, it is highly unusual for a cop to be charged, but the few times that does happen, we generally let the cops off the hook. Many folks find it impossible to accept that police are ever in the wrong.

I'll bet that the youtube comments for this video include a bunch of folks saying that the railroad worker shouldn't "have smarted off"[1]

ABE:

[1] No such comments. Pretty much everyone realizes that this cop is a jerk.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Percy, posted 07-11-2018 3:03 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5583
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 99 of 155 (836289)
07-13-2018 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by ringo
07-09-2018 11:42 AM


The difference is that fists, pepper spray, batons, etc. are seldom fatal. When the probable result of your action is irreversible, the decision ought to be taken a lot more seriously.

Excellent point, which is why I'm kind of amazed at how little you view the lives of victims. You do understand that often their are innocent bystanders or family violence dynamics that demand a person to be rescued from someone capable and willing to do harm to them. Their actions are irreversible, and I wish that were taken more seriously.

A hero is somebody who risks his own life, not somebody else's.

Yeah, and my point is that sometimes it requires taking a life in order to safe a life. Or are you not understanding that the only justified reason to take a life is when another life is on the line?

We have too many police shootings of innocent victims. If taking the decision to shoot more seriously results in more police officers being killed, that's a reality we should be prepared for.

So, cops are expendable but homicidal people are not? Okay. Got it.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 11:42 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 07-14-2018 12:11 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5583
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 100 of 155 (836290)
07-13-2018 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Percy
07-09-2018 2:43 PM


"Rank and file police in most jurisdictions shouldn't have guns. That's my position. Rebut that."

I did. And then when I provide compelling reasons why you are misinformed, you disengage.

Let's talk about the time it takes for the average officer to even get to a call, let alone the time it takes for a SWAT callout. Time in these situations are critical. Lets put that to the test in an extraordinarily violent place like Chicago or Detroit. You have people already on patrol and capable of responding, but you want to disarm them over the 5% of bad shoots at the expense of 95% where it is a necessary evil.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Percy, posted 07-09-2018 2:43 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Percy, posted 07-14-2018 8:03 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5583
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 101 of 155 (836291)
07-13-2018 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Percy
07-11-2018 3:03 PM


Re: The police *are* out to get you
I'm writing not about police shootings but about why police are able to get away with shootings.

In instances of police corruption extending to the highest level, the FBI have cleaned house. The New Orleans police dept, for instance, was entirely under investigation for corruption.

Look, I'm just as disgusted as you are in the instances like this douchebag you showcased, but your solution is extreme.

Some cops become expert at manufacturing noncompliance, or whatever else they need to justify their actions.

I agree, some do -- in an extreme minority. There has never been a time of more accountability than now. The very reason why body cameras were invented was for accountability. It keeps good cops from false accusations and indicts the shit head one's that need to either be fired or prosecuted.

So, you said that I'm being biased and that you don't think cops are necessarily bad (just need to be disarmed) but it is very obvious in the manner of this discussion that you have a beef, in general, with the police. This video has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. So what's all this about bias then? That door swings in both directions, friend.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Percy, posted 07-11-2018 3:03 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Percy, posted 07-14-2018 8:47 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17655
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 102 of 155 (836295)
07-14-2018 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Hyroglyphx
07-13-2018 6:29 PM


Hyroglyphyx writes:

"Rank and file police in most jurisdictions shouldn't have guns. That's my position. Rebut that."

I did.

You didn't.

And then when I provide compelling reasons why you are misinformed, you disengage.

I didn't disengage. You responded to positions you made up for me rather than to what I actually said, so I decided not to respond, not to disengage. You hadn't engaged anything I said, so how could I disengage.

Lets put that to the test in an extraordinarily violent place like Chicago or Detroit.

Quoting myself again but adding some emphasis, "Rank and file police in *most jurisdictions* shouldn't have guns. That's my position. Rebut that."

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2018 6:29 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 07-14-2018 9:31 AM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17655
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 103 of 155 (836296)
07-14-2018 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Hyroglyphx
07-13-2018 6:40 PM


Re: The police *are* out to get you
Hyroglyphyx writes:

Look, I'm just as disgusted as you are in the instances like this douchebag you showcased, but your solution is extreme.

The point is not that some police are "douchebags". The point is that police are just average Joes trying to do the best they can under circumstances that encourage feelings of paranoia and an us-vs-them mentality. It isn't the people who are bad but the situations they are placed in. Giving them guns only makes things worse.

Some cops become expert at manufacturing noncompliance, or whatever else they need to justify their actions.

I agree, some do -- in an extreme minority.

The growing ubiquity of video reveals that on any given day it could be almost any given cop. It other words, it's a solid majority, not some "extreme minority."

The very reason why body cameras were invented was for accountability. It keeps good cops from false accusations and indicts the shit head one's that need to either be fired or prosecuted.

You're just restating your position and ignoring mine. It isn't a case of a few bad apples. The police are just the general population, they're just us, who've been through a training program and taken an oath. Police misbehavior is just what happens when you give normal people power and guns and put them in an environment that encourages paranoia.

So, you said that I'm being biased...

The word "bias" doesn't even appear in any of my posts. What I will say is that you have a habit of responding to your feelings about what was said instead of to what was actually said.

...and that you don't think cops are necessarily bad (just need to be disarmed) but it is very obvious in the manner of this discussion that you have a beef, in general, with the police.

I think I've been pretty clear that I believe giving normal people a cocktail of power, guns and paranoia is a bad idea.

This video has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

As I stated in the very first paragraph of the message, "I'm writing not about police shootings but about why police are able to get away with shootings."

So what's all this about bias then?

I don't know anything about "what's all this about bias?", I never used the word bias. How come you have to make things up to reply about?

That door swings in both directions, friend.

Okay, if you want to be that way about it then why don't you just admit it: you love guns. It has nothing to do with self-defense or policing, you just love guns. Are we getting anywhere now?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2018 6:40 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-15-2018 9:08 PM Percy has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11137
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 104 of 155 (836297)
07-14-2018 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Percy
07-14-2018 8:03 AM


Proposed Solution
Percy, responding to Hyroglyphyx writes:

"Rank and file police in *most jurisdictions* shouldn't have guns. That's my position. Rebut that."

The only problem as I see it is that Rank and file citizenry, even in small rural jurisdictions, do have guns. Guns are a uniquely American problem, and disarming law enforcement won't make the problem go away.

Perhaps one solution would be to provide the police with another weapon that would be lethal in immobilizing suspects yet non-fatal, like a tranquilizer gun.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Percy, posted 07-14-2018 8:03 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Percy, posted 07-15-2018 8:21 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15127
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 105 of 155 (836299)
07-14-2018 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Hyroglyphx
07-13-2018 6:21 PM


Hyroglyphx writes:

You do understand that often their are innocent bystanders or family violence dynamics that demand a person to be rescued from someone capable and willing to do harm to them.


Bystanders can be harmed by police bullets as well as criminal bullets.

Hyroglyphx writes:

Or are you not understanding that the only justified reason to take a life is when another life is on the line?


That's the whole topic: the police don't seem to be very good at deciding when it's "necessary".

Htroglyphx writes:

So, cops are expendable but homicidal people are not?


Don't try to divert the topic. The problem here is that cops often see civilians as expendable.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2018 6:21 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-15-2018 9:15 PM ringo has responded

  
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