Christianity and the End Times

and why go through the needless rituals of gathering together and admiring the Bishops robes while jointly reading from the Book of Common Prayer? A book club could do as much!

Correct. And the Bible also contains factual errors, contradictions and multiple mutually exclusive versions of many of the stories and events. Yes, all of he evidence shows that humans made up GOD.I do not know of anyway anyone living could honestly answer the question "does GOD exist?" Come on Phat, you really can't be that dense. I have posted many times about what I believe. You have read those posts and responded to those posts. Again, are you really that dense? I claim to be an Episcopalian because I am a registered member of the Episcopal Church and have been for about three quarters of a century.But perhaps the difference is that I actually try to be honest and am not afraid to be honest.I understand that belief and know are not synonymous.I understand that reality trumps fantasy.I understand that what is actually written in the Bible stories is what is actually written in those Bible stories.I admit that the God character in the stories is described differently and not uniformly in the different stories.I admit that there are lots and lots and lots of gods described down through human history AND each and every single one of those gods is equally valid based on the fact that there is no evidence to support the existence of any of them.I understand that had I been born in a different family I would most likely not be an Episcopalian or even a Christian.I understand that religion is primarily a political and cultural creation and that it is very personal and often a hive affectation; members of the hive tend to stick together and market the same dogma. (one of the things I do like about the Episcopal dogma is that it is filled with disagreement and controversy and thus not uniform or universal)The reality is that my choice of religion is primarily just such a hive infection; I am a Christian because my family were Christian and an Episcopalian because I was initially baptized and admitted into the Episcopal Communion and was primarily educated in an Episcopal School setting.But I remain a Christian Episcopalian because in my studies of other paths I have not found one that offered a better life path lesson and that had features that could not be incorporated under the umbrella of Episcopal Doctrine.Being charged to try to do good is not really all that bad a path to follow and it does not much matter whether the charge is innate or from a fellow human like Jesus or the Buddha or Muhammad or Confucius or Lao Tzu or from a spiritual being like Raven or GOD or Ganesha.AbE: stuff Phat added in another message. I have never posted about myself or anyone else getting together to admire the Bishops Robes but learning the symbolism of vestments is another way to further someone's education. Ignorance should always be faced with reality and that includes the symbolism and shorthand speech we often use within a given community. In the Episcopal Church (as well as many other chapters there are symbols that were meant to act a clues for contemplation. In the Episcopal Tradition, those symbols and their meaning and purpose are part of the basic education. Each is meant as a reminder to the viewer of either the duties of the wearer in the case of vestments or the duties of the viewer in examples like the images in stained glass windows.The vestments are not meant to be admired but rather are reminders to the wearer of the responsibilities assumed by the position.And about the Book of Common Prayer.The Book of Common Prayer actually predates the Authorized King James Bible. It to has a form and function directly related to the Bible and Christianity. It is a daily study guide and lesson plan built around a three year cycle to lead the communion through the Bible every three years.But it is even more.It also included the basic format for each of the rites (the steps) that a Christian takes during his ministry. It is a guide through the day, every day, from beginning each new morning with Morning Prayer to ending each day with the reflection on the day past and plans for the morrow found in Evening Prayer. It includes the charges on the adults and the expectations on the children. It is about growth and learning and honesty and reflection.It contains far more than just prayer though and begins with the explanation of the Church Year but then moves on to the personal worship, the Daily Offices that are meant primarily for individual or family use. In growing up we held Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer several times a week at home.The Book of Common Prayer also includes many of the Historical Documents of basic Christianity as well as a Lectionary.So, as you see, it is far more than simply reading jointly from the Book of Common Prayer, it is far more a study guide and education in the meanings, origin, history and function of Christianity itself.Edited by jar, : See AbE:

Being wrong is an important part of being human.The mind isn't just a blank slate on which we write things that are "right"; a lot of wrong things get written there. For example, when you're little, you might think that caterpillars and butterflies are completely different. Correcting that wrong is what we call "learning" and hopefully we can continue learning throughout our lives.There's a certain enjoyment in learning something, in becoming right (endorphins?), part of the evolution of intelligence.It's hard to respect somebody who's never wrong.

Wow. The Son of God was absolutely sinless so you can't respect Him for that? If He hadn't been absolutely perfectly sinless He would not have qualified to pay for our sins.

I said that if He was fully human, he'd have to be wrong once in a while. That's a human experience that nobody should miss out on.I didn't say a single solitary word about sin. Do you think it's a sin to be wrong? "Paying for our sins" is a rubbish concept. If God wants to forgive us, He can just forgive us. The "payment' is something that HE arbitrarily requires, so He can just drop it.Did you ever see The Godfather? "You have done me a great disservice. Kill my son and we'll call it even." Do you see how stupid that sounds?

Sorry, I should have been clearer. Yes, He cannot be wrong about anything either. He was a PERFECT human being, not a FALLEN human being. Fallen human beings are wrong a lot, He was incapable of being wrong about anything.Sacrifice was understood from the beginning of time to be required as payment for sin, that's what Cain and Abel were doing: offering sacrifices. Noah took clean animals on the ark in order to sacrifice them after the Flood. All the heathen nations had some form or other of sacrifice, usually a form that God rejected, and they sacrificed to demons to boot, but nevertheless it shows that they had the idea in mind. Some heathen did get it right, though, such as Job. The sacrifices God instituted for Israel were very precisely defined and offered in great numbers. All of that is to be a hint that our sins cannot be cleansed without sacrifice. The Letter to the Hebrews lays all of this out too, going into great detail about blood as required for the propitiation of sin, how the blood of animals couldn't suffice but pointed to the blood that DOES suffice, that of Christ.Of course you are free to argue that it's all stupid in spite of all that. I can't say I understand it, but I accept it on the testimony of so many biblical references.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

It's a necessary plot device. Without it he was just killed. The End.There's an interesting plot twist where he's supposed to have come back to life, but instead of doing anything useful on his return, he just boringly and uselessly disappears. The End.So if you're trying to convince ignorant people into believing he wasn't just some bloke like all the others, you have to spin the whole forgiveness thing; even though it makes no sense at all.And, of course, you leave the whole thing on a cliff-hanger by predicting a final return. But then lose interest and forget to write the follow up.

I said I don't ujderstand it, but I do understand it insofar as I understand that "the wages of sin is death," that is, we die because we sin, as God told Adam and Eve they would if they disobeyed Him. They did and we all die ever since. They were originally immortal, and those who accept God's sacrifice for our sins will once again live happily forever. Actually everybody is going to live forever but not all happily. Anyway, because death is the consequence of sin it takes death to propitiate it, the death of the incarnate Son of God Himself.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This all makes Scientology look like the gold standard of reasonable ideas.

Not true Faith. Adam was told that he would die the very day he disobeyed and of course that too never happened. God was simply wrong at best or lying. Not true Faith, they most certainly were not originally mortal or the God character in the story is just plain stupid and dishonest since there was a Tree of Life created that God feared Adam & Eve would eat from and then become immortal.You really, and your cult, do not believe a thing the Bible says or is it that you have never read it?

They did die that very day, biblically death refers to every kind of disease and deformity and infirmity. On the day they sinned death entered their bodies and began its work until they finally died completely.

The Fall is another rubbish concept - AND it's a direct contradiction of what the Bible says. It's funny (literally ha-ha) how you cherry-pick which Old Testament concepts to keep and which to ignore. Strike one. Well, no. Not at all. God is supposed to be omnipotent - or at least more than some petty potentate. He's the one who supposedly makes the rules, and yet you seem to be saying that He has no choice, sacrifice is required.

Just curious, did you have any kind of Christian experience in your life, as a child or whatever?

The Fall is the reason Jesus had to die, as God promised Adam and Eve right after their disobedience that He would send a Savior.

The idea of Adam and Eve ever being immoral is not scriptural. Death is not a consequence of sin; it's a consequence of life. Again, if God makes the rules, He is under no compulsion to make that one. I's a silly rule made up by shamans. "You have done me a great disservice. Kill my son and we'll call it even."Edited by ringo, : malfunctioning sHift keY.