|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Christianity and the End Times | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What you fail to take into account is that it is God who authored the scriptures, Paul was merely one of His instruments.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Very strange idea that anyone could have invented a cult BEFORE making use of the scriptures. Sorry, we derive our beliefs from the scriptures, there is no other way it could have happened whether you agree with us or not and your way of reading the Bible is bizarre anyway; and saying that I personally made it up is of course ridiculous since I take my cue from lots of sermons I've heard and books I've read over the years.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Knowing good and evil IS the Fall, you just refuse to understand what scripture means by that. They didn't lack simple knowledge of what it was before that, first of all, but the knowledge they now had after their sin was an experiential knowledge of what evil really is because they had committed it themselves and would now also experience its evil consequences.
The heathen only "got it right " about blood sacrifice to the extent that they remembered what great grandfather Noah told them, who got it from great great grandfather Adam, about the necessity of sacrifice for the purging of sin, and in fact a lot of the heathen religions show a distorted memory of the idea of the coming Savior as they seem to be trying to create him before his time. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You said that God has no power to change the nature of the universe. He can't change the MORAL nature of the universe, same as He can't be anything other than He is either; It may be possible that He could make many different universes in the physical sense, but I'm not sure about that.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Faith writes:
Deciding that scripture doesn't mean what it says is a dangerous road to go down. What it says is that Adam and Eve became more like God. Only a really perverse mind could make a bad thing out of that. Of course, we would expect you to say that knowledge is a bad thing. Knowing good and evil IS the Fall, you just refuse to understand what scripture means by that. By the way, I looked into the bit about God promising Adam and Eve a Saviour. Surprise surprise, Google took me to Answers in Genesis - and surprise surprise, as per usual, they got it wrong. What Genesis 3 says is that Eve's seed will bruise tbe serpent's head and the serpent will bruise the heel of Eve's seed. AiG - and presumably you by proxy - stretches that to Eve's seed being Jesus. It seems odd that Jesus would be called Eve's seed instead of Adam's or, even better, God's. But in any case it doesn't make any sense because it's depicted as a mutual bruise-to-bruise animosity - i.e. there is no winner - i.e. no saviour.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Why not? Isn't He supposed to be the source of morality? Poof! Moral. Poof! Immoral. What's the problem? He can't change the MORAL nature of the universe....And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Very strange idea that anyone could have invented a cult BEFORE making use of the scriptures. No, they created your cult by perverting and misusing and misrepresenting what is actually written as I have said repeatedly.
Faith writes: Sorry, we derive our beliefs from the scriptures, there is no other way it could have happened whether you agree with us or not and your way of reading the Bible is bizarre anyway; and saying that I personally made it up is of course ridiculous since I take my cue from lots of sermons I've heard and books I've read over the years. Yet what is actually written in the Bible stories refutes your beliefs which is why your and your cult take passages out of context and misrepresent what is actually written. Yes, you do seem to take your cues not from the Bible or what is actually written but rather from the cult dogma marketers you read and listen to.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
... as God promised Adam and Eve right after their disobedience that He would send a Savior. That's a new one on me. Chapter and verse? It's pretty famous as the first prophecy of the Savior:
Genesis 3:15 writes: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Please don't get silly on me and make a big deal out of the fact that this was literally said to the serpent rather than to Adam and Eve. They got the message, and so did all their descendants, up to a point anyway, since it was only the righteous who held on to it and passed it on intact. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
He can't change the MORAL nature of the universe.... Why not? Isn't He supposed to be the source of morality? Poof! Moral. Poof! Immoral. What's the problem? He's good, He can't become evil. He is "the same yesterday and today and forever," He cannot change Himself, and blessed are we that He is forever and always good. He made creatures with the capacity to do evil though, and therein lies the whole drama of the Creation and the Fall and Redemption. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
He creates evil. (Please don't waste everybody's time by trying to deny that.)
He's good, He can't become evil. Faith writes:
That's cute sound bite but it doesn't fit the text. He changed His mind about the creation and decided to destroy it with a flood. He changed His mind several times about destroying Sodom and Gommorah. There doesn't seem to be a very solid reason for Him to be incapable of changing His mind again, say about the "need" for blood sacrifice. He is "the same yesterday and today and forever," Edited by ringo, : I swear the submit button jumped up and hit my finger before I was ready.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You misread that. What "He creates evil" means is that He creates calamity. It is not meant in the sense of sin, which is specifically denied in scripture. He cannot sin, He cannot lie etc etc etc, but he does create evil in the sense of calamity.
And you also misread the idea of God's changing His mind, which He only does in response to changed attitudes of ours. If we change from sin to obedience He changes His mind about judging us. But it's a way of talking for the sake of our understanding, since in reality He had all of it in mind long before any of it happened. The need for blood sacrifice is built into the nature of the Creation and the Moral Law that runs the universe. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Of course God can not sin. Sin is an offense against God. He can easily choose not to be offended by His own actions. You misread that. What "He creates evil" means is that He creates calamity. It is not meant in the sense of sin, which is specifically denied in scripture. He cannot sin, He cannot lie etc etc etc, but he does create evil in the sense of calamity. But the distinction between evil and calamity is entirely bogus. God CAN choose not to send calamities against us, can't He? He COULD choose to waive the blood sacrifice, couldn't He?
Faith writes:
So He CAN change His mind, as I said. His policy on when to change His mind is completely irrelevant to the fact that He can and does change His mind, as I said. And you also misread the idea of God's changing His mind, which He only does in response to changed attitudes of ours.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
God CAN choose not to send calamities against us, can't He? He COULD choose to waive the blood sacrifice, couldn't He? If WE change and no longer deserve judgment He can call off calamities we would have deserved. No, He can't change the blood sacrifice, it's the only atonement for sin, the only way sin can be absolutely wiped out. If He called it off we would be left in our sins deserving eternal punishment. Well, it's not irrelevant why God changes His mind. He blesses or curses based on human behavior, so if our behavior changes His response changes. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
So He's a slave to our foibles.
If WE change and no longer deserve judgment He can call off calamities we would have deserved. Faith writes:
So what? If He doesn't mind and we don't mind, no harm, no foul. If He called it off we would be left in our sins deserving eternal punishment.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jaywill Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
quote: You were mentioning "bluster" ?So let's see your efforts below. quote: Nope.But I'm waiting for backup to your bluster. So far you did the easy part. You bragged about it. quote: The medium sometimes a challenge to follow without a lot of back up and double checking. Your real conclusive comments, I'm keeping an eye out for, after I get through some of this preliminary remarks. We have a number of points I expect you to offer better biblical analysis of.You requested "Bible Study" in your OP I think. quote: Yes. And your comment is worthless to me.Who ELSE in the chapter qualifies as a better referent to those who OVERCOME the Devil? The angels mentioned don't need the redeeming blood.The symbolic woman fleeing seems to be harassed rather than overcoming. The angels do not DIE or need to deny themselves UNTO death. The best referent to the proclamation is the THEY of the manchild. OF course the Apostle Paul said that the God of peace would also crush Satan under the feet of the prevailing disciples.
Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. (Rom. 16:20) So we have plain teaching that the saints will overcome Satan.And we have symbolism to the same effect. You not only miss the big picture but possibly have a some ignorance or possible unbelief that the saints of Christ not be overcoming. Revelation 12 reveals that a remnant, a minority WILL, and that for the sake of the whole Body of Christ. So the Woman of universal light has within her a stronger component - a corporate Manchild. Also the angels going to war with the Devil and his angels in verse 7-9.The angels are ministering servants of the human saints who are to inherit salvation. So they, on behalf of the overcoming saints, are just doing their job. Are they [angels] not ministering spirits, sent forth for service for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation? (Hebrews 1:13,14) This is all reminiscent of the angelic forces siding with Daniel as he stood in the gap of petition and prayer on behalf of God's people. We await your better explanation of the Manchild. You don't get the big picture at all. Jesus wants PARTNERS to follow Him in His carrying out of God's will. In fact part of His redemptive death is that He would reproduce Himself in others to be LIKE Him.
Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. (John 12:24) The big picture of the New Testament is that Christ died not only a redemptive death but a duplicating death. That is that HE as a Son of God, would not abide ALONE. The very next verse indicates that the believers follow Him with denying their soul-life to follow Him instead.
He who loves his soul-life loses it; and he who hates his soul-life in this world shall keep it unto eternal life. (v.25) If you had any heart to see the larger picture you would see that His plain teaching in John 12:24,25 is symbolically indicated that He WILL obtain at least a remnant of those who do not love their soul life to overcome God's enemy and bring in the kingdom of God.
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accuses them day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death" (Rev. 12:10-11) Now, to follow the discussion more closely, I will end this post here.Its bottom line is that I doubt you have a better referent to the overcoming ones in chapter 12 than a collective army of saints, depicted as a Man-child. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024