Christianity and the End Times

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Sounds plausible. What percentage of the global population would we imagine the church roughly to comprise?

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I don't know Phat.

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What are the basic qualifications for this group? Belief or works or both?

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If you look at the seven epistles you see that within each church there was a call for some to overcome. They were not all called to overcome the same problems. But they were all called to prevail over surrounding degradation of some type.So in each age or local church believers may face varied challenges. Whatever the specific challenges of that age Christ is sufficient to make them more than conquerors. The book by Watchman Nee called The Normal Christian Life sounds benign and possibly even dull. But the point of that book is that it should be NORMAL for the Christian to be prevailing in grace, overcoming in empowering in the Spirit of Christ, and rise above mediocrity and lukewarmness and "average" to more than conquer, as the NT says.The subject is really The [Overcoming] Christian Life -- which SHOULD be attainable because of what Christ is in the believers.To be an overcomer (or if you will - "more than conquer",) is only to rise to the standard of what God expects via the overcoming grace He has provided.

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Or was the church chosen by God?

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The church is chosen before the foundation of the world, iee. before the creation of the universe. If the believers stand upon these great promises in faith, all the more we can overcome. Instead of arguing about foreknowledge and predestination we should USE predestination to increase our faith and enjoyment of Christ.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Phat,

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I can understand how a smaller group within the church was (were) overcomers.

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The entire nation of Israel was chosen to be a nation of priests. But God ended up having to reserve the sons of Levi to be the priests. They were old testament overcomers.The twelve spies of Israel sent into Canaan should have had the faith to bring back a good report. The ten were weakened in faith and only TWO - Joshua and Caleb believed the promise of God was attainable. They two were Old Testament overcomers.The entire nation of Israel was chosen to defeat the Midianites. But God ended up having to reserve a small army of 300 under Gideon to be the victors. They were old testament overcomers.Did all the Israelites return from the Babylonian captivity? Only a remnant overcame to fulfill God's plan of recovery.In the New Testament THOUSANDS heard Jesus and many received blessing from Him. Only one hundred and twenty were in the room awaiting the Holy Spirit. Where were all the rest?God loved them. God blessed them. But we can consider the one hundred and twenty in the upper room as having been those who overcame the typical and average apathy.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : Philistines and error. I meant Midianites (Judges 7,8)

Phat,The principle of a remnant standing in the gap is seen many times in the Bible.
In the end times it is the same.It is not important to self identify as an overcomer. This is arrogance. It is however, great to say to God you desire to cooperate with Him TO overcome.Paul did not know until the end that he had finished his course and run the race set before him. Christians should have the same attitude.In the seven letters to the seven churches there is always a concluding promise of special blessing to those who overcome. Twice there the promise is in terms of NOT doing something disciplinary. IE. The Reward is you will NOT ... suffer such and such.Either postively or negatively, these for whom the question of eternal life and eternal redemption is already settled in the affirmative, are called to OVERCOME some kind of obstacle.Think of the Man-child of Revelation 12 in this way.I am verbose and wrote probably many things which you did not ask about. I hope your question was answered. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Thinking of the church as a whole, yes, but these verses address single overcomers and it doesn't address them AS a collective, you have to add that part. And the Mainchild as Jesus Christ is simply singular, there is nothing to cause us to think of Him as a collective, whereas overcomers CAN be thought of as a collective although there is nothing in these passages to require it of us. Overcomers can certainly be thought of as a collective, though again there is nothing in the passages themselves to require it of us, but the Manchild, He's Jesus Christ, there is nothing at all that suggests a collective in that image there or anywhere else that I know of.There is, however, ONE point in those verses that suggests more of an identity with Christ than I would normally guess: that's number 4)when the overcomer is told he will rule the nations with a rod of iron. That is so specifically a description of Christ it is interesting to consider such a specific identity between Him and His overcomers. But I don't see any reason to apply that identity to the Manchild caught up into heaven.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Sounds plausible

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Don’t be deceived by Jaywill. He presented absolutely no argument that the manchild represents a collective.

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The entire nation of Israel was chosen to be a nation of priests. But God ended up having to reserve the sons of Levi to be the priests. They were old testament overcomers.

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The twelve spies of Israel sent into Canaan should have had the faith to bring back a good report. The ten were weakened in faith and only TWO - Joshua and Caleb believed the promise of God was attainable. They two were Old Testament overcomers.

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The entire nation of Israel was chosen to defeat the Philistines. But God ended up having to reserve a small army of 300 under Gideon to be the victors. They were old testament overcomers.

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Did all the Israelites return from the Babylonian captivity? Only a remnant overcame to fulfill God's plan of recovery.

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In the New Testament THOUSANDS heard Jesus and many received blessing from Him. Only one hundred and twenty were in the room awaiting the Holy Spirit. Where were all the rest?

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God loved them. God blessed them. But we can consider the one hundred and twenty in the upper room as having been those who overcame the typical and average apathy.

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Did God foreknow these results?Or did the people choose to become overcomers?

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Did God foreknow these results?

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Or did the people choose to become overcomers?

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The free will vs foreknowledge and predestination paradox I cannot solve totally. Ask me something simpler.My answer would probably be both as God is so transcendent.Consider John 3:16.We could ask:Did God foreknow these results?
Or did the people choose to become believers?I say both.Then consider Revelation 2:26-28.Again we could ask:Did God foreknow these results?
Or did the people choose to become overcomers?The answer is paradoxically both.
It should be so in both cases.But totally solving this mysterious paradox? That's too hard for me.I would not advise anyone to use that philosophical dilemma to put off responding to the Gospel of Christ in belief in the case of John 3:16And I would not advise any Christian to be distracted by that philosophical dilemma so as to ignore the call to overcome once in the Christian church.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Thinking of the church as a whole, yes, but these verses address single overcomers and it doesn't address them AS a collective, you have to add that part. And the Mainchild as Jesus Christ is simply singular, there is nothing to cause us to think of Him as a collective, whereas overcomers CAN be thought of as a collective although there is nothing in these passages to require it of us.

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This is not a problem to me because the overcoming saints stand for and represent for the whole what it is God intends to achieve.Consider the promise to those who overcome in Revelation 3:12 in the church in Philadelphia. Now this reward is to be so totally identified with God final corporate enterprise that they bear her name. God writes upon then the name of the collective in eternity New Jerusalem .They become pillars in the dwelling place of God, His living temple. Complete ownership is assigned to them. And they will go out of this corporate entity no more.They foretaste that conclusion which finally is the common portion of all the saints. Their having overcome lead them ahead. They arrive at collective entity that God desires from eternity past. But they do so as a kind of beach head victory on behalf of all the other believers who are to follow.So also is the man-child.The seven rewards pertaining to those who overcome in Revelation 2 and 3 are about reward dispensed in the thousand year millennial kingdom. This age is between the church age and the age of the new heaven and new earth in eternity.Church age of grace -----> Millennial age of Kingdom -----> Eternal age of the new heaven and new earth.God in His wisdom foreknew that of all the saved persons SOME would regard His grace more cheaply and SOME would not. He knew SOME would nullify the full effectiveness of His grace in them and others would spend all His grace to cooperate with their transformation and sanctification.Therefore God set up the millennial kingdom as a REWARD for those who are wise to cooperate in a timely manner.Because so many Christians are in a habit of thinking eternity will commence upon the second coming of Christ, this incentive of the thousand year reward seems odd to them.Paul only promises that ALL will arrive at the full stature of the full knowledge of the Son of God eventually. If some overcome to arrive before the majority, they simply stand for the final product in an early way.They will be joined by the rest, future to their being rewarded for overcoming in their age.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Overcomers can certainly be thought of as a collective, though again there is nothing in the passages themselves to require it of us, but the Manchild, He's Jesus Christ, there is nothing at all that suggests a collective in that image there or anywhere else that I know of.

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What about when the Apostle Paul speaks to the Galatian Christians that as many as heed to a certain principle, they stand as the Israel of God? You know the problems in the Galatian churches in the book of Galatians.
Paul seeks to cause them to overcome. And as many as will overcome and walk by a certain rule of transformation into a new creation- they stand for the collective of the Israel of God.In other words - "THIS, THIS new creation is what God is after. This is up to the standard of normality. Overcome to rise to this - the collective of the Israel of God in truth."Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I am not sure, but I think some Bible students may be alarmed to hear of a corporate overcoming entity within the whole mystical Body of Christ. Perhaps they feel this un-churches other believers.I think the fear is unfounded. Think of this. John identified himself as "the disciple whom Jesus loved" (John 20:2) . Now does this mean that Jesus did not love the other disciples? Of course not.I am a disciple of Jesus. And I sense strongly that Jesus loves me too. Nevetheless John wants us to know only this about his identity - He was the disciple whom Jesus loved. To be in the love of Jesus was so wonderful.He could not mean that Jesus ONLY loved John.Transfer the logic to a Man-child - a collective unit to win a strategic victory.
What THEY REALIZED was simple the full power of what God has in His heart for ALL the mystical body of Christ.Revelation brings this out.Now if anyone simply CANNOT regard the man-child as a collective in Revelation 12, I am happy that they say "No, No, it could only be Jesus." For they are not wrong in a strong sense. If no resurrected Jesus - NO overcoming.I only hope the loudest critics really have faith that Jesus did rise from the dead. Any argument from agnosticism that the man-child is Jesus isn't worth too much to me. IF Jesus did not rise our entire Christian faith is in vain (1 Cor. 15:17-19) I will always teach that the Firstfruits are raptured overcomers who will be living at the pre-great tribulation time and the Man-child is raptured overcomers who need resurrection and rapture at the pre-great tribulation time.A chapter is dedicated to the living ones and a chapter is dedication to the deceased ones - Rev. 14 and 12 respectively.For this post only one final thing I wish to add:Believing in a pre-great tribulation rapture is no guarantee that one will be raptured pre-great tribulation.Not believing in a pre-great tribulation rapture is no guarantee that one will NOT be raptured pre-great tribulation.Watching and walking in the Holy Spirit vigilantly will determine participation in a pre-great tribulation rapture.Those living at the time will go up for they are found thus walking.
Those of the past who died thus walking will be resurrected to go up.In both cases this will be a remnant of overcoming ones. And if not going up at the same moment, their respective raptures will be close in time. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Now this thread was titled Christianity and the End Times .When a minority of saints living are suddenly not found, as Enoch was taken, and when the majority of Christians realize that they have been left, that will go a long way to bring about the End of Christianity during the End Times. Though I do not intend to high jack the subject matter.This however, depends on how one views the word "Christianity". To some this is an only sweet and positive term. To others "Christianity" means any and all things slapped with the label associating it with Christ.The early secretive rapture will not only be a cause of Satan to be driven down to earth by the obedient angelic servants of the saints. It will also go considerably to AWAKEN millions of Christian brothers and sisters that what they ASSUMED of what God wants apparently was not sufficient to merit their rapture.To a significant degree this will aid to bring about the end of Christiandom as a huge mixture of things of God with things not of God. It will not be the end of Christians. And it will not be the end of the church universal.The OTHER catalyst that will bring about the destruction of Christiandom will be the activity of the Antichrist. We may get to these matters latter. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

We aren't likely to resolve our differences on this thread, the best we can probably do is try to be clear about them.

Jaywill, I'm not denying that there are many ways Christians are spoken of as a collective or a coporate body, all I'm saying is that I don't see that in the image of the Manchild being caught up to heaven in Revelation 12, and so far your references to our being a collective in other contexts haven't changed that.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Jaywill, I'm not denying that there are many ways Christians are spoken of as a collective or a coporate body, all I'm saying is that I don't see that in the image of the Manchild being caught up to heaven in Revelation 12, and so far your references to our being a collective in other contexts haven't changed that.

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So be it.
But your difficulty is not one for me.In the classic story of the little army of 300 soldiers with Gideon in Judges 7 a loaf of barley bread in a dream stood for Gideon and his little army of overcomers. This is the Bible's quintessential account of God gaining a great victory with a remnant of a relatively small number of people under their divinely ordained leader. And I believe that symbol of a round barley loaf pointed to Gideon their leader and the small overcoming collective under his command.So a Man-child could point to the resurrected Christ and the faithful overcomers closely following Him as a remnant. Christ's life has actually been dispensed into them. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I just don't see anything in the Manchild other than the single Person of Christ. All the other things are saying I have no problem with, I just don't see any connection between them and the Manchild.