Christianity and the End Times

But how do you "know" that? You can't have learned it from the Bible; that would be circular. On the contrary, when you're reading different books written at different times by different people with different purposes, you can't superimpose a veneer of relationships. One obvious mistake you make is mashing every villain in the Bible into one "Satan" character. Even the characters named Satan are not all villains (Book of Job) and the poor little snake in Genesis wasn't a villain at all.You wouldn't mash up The Wind in the Willows with the Phone Book and The Wealth of Nations, would you? So why don't you have the same respect for the individual books of the Bible?

I'm not sure your (and jaywill's) hodge-podge is going to help any body. It seems to me that you're trying to clear a minefield by throwing in more mines.

I'll just say I know the Bible is God's word because I have the Holy Spirit who reveals it to me. But that is the supernatural character of the Bible right there, that all those different books with different authors in different cultural and historical contexts do support one another's messages, that's the whole point. All its writers with one exception are Jews brought up in the Hebrew scriptures, so how much difference would you expect? I don't know what you are trying to say here. Nobody I know "mashes" villains together like that. The Bible is supernatural, which people who have the Holy Spirit are able to discern. No other book is upernatural.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

But it's only possesion by some spirit that supports that idea. The fact that you can flat-out contradict what the Bible says so often says something about the "holiness" of that spirit. snake = Satan = dragon is a mash-up.

Scripture reveals the identity of the snake, nobody's "mashing" it up.The usual problem of course, the way you keep finding "contradictions" where there aren't any because you don't have the Holy Spirit.

It's identified as a snake. Any further "revelation" is made up. The only contradiction I've mentioned is you contradicting the Bible. And as I said, if the spirit is telling you to contradict the Bible, the nature of that spirit is questionable.

No proof Genesis 1:1 cannot be true.The age of the universe is not the issue.
The origin is.And you're going to have to trust someone because neither of us or no other human being knows for sure of its ORIGIN.

Utter bullshit, misrepresentation, an attempt to change the subject, palm the pea and con the rubes from you jaywill.Genesis 1:1 says "1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."Note the word "beginning".First the term "the heaven" has no meaning and we can tell from the following verses that the heavens did not mean the sun or moon since they are created later. It might be the other stars but again, in reality the stars did not exist at the beginning.Second, in truth and reality the Earth did not exist at the beginning and most certainly did not exist before the sun.Therefore Genesis 1:1 (and all of Genesis 1) is factually incorrect.You can, as the Christian Cult if Ignorance and Dishonesty so often does, try to twist what is written to fit your dogma however the facts remain, Genesis 1:1 as well as all of Genesis 1 is factually false and is not true.It can be said to be an allegory, a poetic attempt to show God as a creator of all that is, but to assert that it is factual simply makes you look ignorant at best or dishonest.But Genesis 1 is all allegorical and its purpose is to explain the 6 day religious week and the 7^th. day as the Sabbath. God and the things created are simply plot devices to move through the cycle.

I want to find someone worthy enough to study about the end times in the Bible with.

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Utter bullshit, misrepresentation, an attempt to change the subject, palm the pea and con the rubes from you jaywill.

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You're still a liar for insisting you know what you don't.
You don't know for a fact that God did not create the universe.

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Genesis 1:1 says "1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

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And you lied to us saying you knew for a fact God did not create the heavens and the earth. When asked for proof - you hoped to shift the whole argument away from the basis of your factual knowledge that God did not create the heaven and earth.

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Note the word "beginning".

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Note that you will not retract that you have no scientific proof God is not the Supreme Creator of the universe.Still trying to save face, I guess.
Why don't you just say "Well, I can't say that I KNOW Genesis 1:1 is wrong"?

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First the term "the heaven" has no meaning

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That's ridiculous. By consulting how else the word is used in Scripture one can adequately understand what the writer meant by heavens.And if it does have no meaning then you cannot say you KNOW for a fact what it says about it is wrong.Can't have it both ways.

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and we can tell from the following verses that the heavens did not mean the sun or moon since they are created later.

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The word used on the fourth day for sun, moon, and stars is not the word for create . You can't insist that possibly appoint or made has to be created (ex nihilo) as to what it says about the sun, moon, and stars made on the fourth day.You could just say - "Well, I spoke too soon saying that I know for a FACT that God did not create the heavens and the earth."And if you want to play hardball and profanity to describe my discussion, I can accommodate you in kind and say your just a stubborn liar who blustered his way into putting his foot into his mouth.Strickly speaking in chapter 1 the word for created is only used for 1:1 the heavens and the earth, 1:21 for great sea creatures. , and 1:27 for man.

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It might be the other stars but again, in reality the stars did not exist at the beginning.

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Stars HAD a beginning. The steady state theory has fallen out of favor. And an eternally existing universe has also lost popularity.Still no proof in this that you KNOW God did not create the heavens and the earth in the beginning.You could say "Well, I don't believe that time, space, matter, energy and the whole universe were created by God."But you don't know its a FACT, that God is not the Supreme Creator.

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Second, in truth and reality the Earth did not exist at the beginning and most certainly did not exist before the sun.

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All that counts is that the Earth HAD a beginning.
And it HAD a Creator for it in the beginning - God.It all except God had a beginning. Only God is UNCREATED.
That's what I believe. I never saw ANY scientific evidence otherwise.You have no scientific proof otherwise.
Cosmologists are pretty much in agreement that the universe seems to have BEGUN.Whoever started it must be transcendent OVER it and have a WILL to bring it into existence plus incredible power and wisdom and knowledge to do so.The fine tuning many constants strongly suggests that Someone calibrated these constants for the existence of higher life forms such as human beings.Most of the science I have learned leans toward me being on the right track to believe that In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Gen 1:1)

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Therefore Genesis 1:1 (and all of Genesis 1) is factually incorrect.

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I don't believe the universe created itself.
I don't believe that something that didn't exist somehow brought itself into existence. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist when it comes to the creation of the universe. And anybody who claims they KNOW for a fact God is not the Creator is lying or self deluded - probably both.

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You can, as the Christian Cult if Ignorance and Dishonesty so often does,

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If knowing that you're lying that you say you KNOW for a FACT that God did not create the heavens and the earth in the beginning is being in a Christian Cult, then I'll let them call me a Christian Cult.In the meantime, in spite of that you say you KNOW something to be a FACT you have not proof that it is a fact.

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try to twist what is written to fit your dogma however the facts remain, Genesis 1:1 as well as all of Genesis 1 is factually false and is not true.

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No proof of Genesis 1:1 being wrong.Neither do you explain how the Time, Space, Matter could create themselves.Looks like you're the one in a Cult of Ignorance.

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It can be said to be an allegory, a poetic attempt to show God as a creator of all that is, but to assert that it is factual simply makes you look ignorant at best or dishonest.

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Allegory, poetry, spiritualization, aside you have no scientific proof that God did not create the heavens and the earth in the beginning - PERIOD.You didn't witness the creation.
Neither did I.But I'm the one who says "Hey, I have a faith in this speaking. I trust this speaking."You're the fool who rushes in saying "Oh, but I KNOW that God didn't create the heavens and the earth in the beginning."

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But Genesis 1 is all allegorical and its purpose is to explain the 6 day religious week and the 7th. day as the Sabbath. God and the things created are simply plot devices to move through the cycle.

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That's nice. In the meantime you don't KNOW for a FACT that God did not create the heavens and the earth in the beginning. Admit it.And a self creating universe is HARDER to believe than one created by an all powerful and eternal God who transcends all the universe.This stuff belongs on the thread about a Plain Reading of Genesis perhaps or some other thread about Genesis.Next time before you pull out your canned strawman arguments against YEC (or OEC for that matter) be careful not to insist that you know something for a FACT that you really do not know for a FACT. And if you continue to insist that you do know it, I count that as you lying to yourself, let alone the rest of the world. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Once again you simply try to palm the pea, con the rubes, change the subject, move the goal posts. The issue was whether or not Genesis 1:1 (and all of Genesis 1) was factually correct or true and the reality is that Genesis 1:1 is factually false, not true, incorrect.You do not want to actually study anything, just market your Cults Dogma.

I applaud his argument against you. You cant accuse your opponent of misrepresentation when he points out that you yourself are attempting to be the spokesman for logic, reason, and reality.You often resort to name calling, as if a child on a playground attempting to belittle his opponent. Of course, we know that jaywill and yourself believe differently.jaywill believes that the Bible was inspired by GOD. Whether the book is factually accurate or not is a matter of debate, but you cannot simply frame the issue that starts with your own belief and conclusion---that is was written, edited and redacted by Man and thus since Man HAD to exist on earth and since EARTH was not around in "the beginning" implies the words of Genesis to be factually incorrect. You have to allow for the possibility that Genesis was inspired by GOD long before you or I or jaywill or Joe Wood or anyone else alive today was even capable of questioning it.Granted the authors of that era had a limited understanding of reality and wrote as they were inspired to write.In order for your argument to hold water, you must prove that the authors of Genesis were inspired with their own imagination rather than through GOD.

And you are being as dishonest as jaywill.I never made such an argument as you will admit if you have any honesty. Bullshit Phat. What inspired the writers is irrelevant to what is actually written. If you want to assert that God inspired them to write factually false material then make the case for your position.The issue is that I posted that Genesis 1:1 was factually false. jaywill challenged me to support that.I did.And the jaywill started his typical tap dance routine of claiming I did not prove God did not create all that is.That of course is just a classic Christian Cult of Ignorance and Dishonesty tactic, change the subject.You are continuing that tactic by misrepresenting any argument I have made.

I know your argument quite well.Answer me these questions:Do you believe that GOD inspired the Bible? If you are honest you will say that there is no way for you to know. Am I right?This gets us back to our old SOURCE vs CONTENT debate. jaywill and i are focusing on the SOURCE. You misdirect attention by insisting that CONTENT is all that matters. Am I right? (If I am misrepresenting what you say, please explain why) My point is that whether or not you explicitly made the argument in THIS conversation, it underlies your basic position...which I can prove through quoting you elsewhere.Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky

Still trying to avoid addressing the topic? No, you are not right. Based on the evidence of what is actually written I reach the conclusion that God did NOT inspire or direct or edit or proof read or redact or influence what is written in the Bible. The evidence to support that conclusion are the factual errors, the mutually exclusive contradictory passages, the multiple and evolving versions of many tales as well as the general structure of the stories themselves. You are either wrong or being dishonest regarding the character of the Source. As pointed out above, the Bible is filled with factual errors, mutually exclusive contradictory passages, multiple and evolving versions of many tales as well as the general folk tale structure of the stories themselves. If God is the SOURCE then the SOURCE created factual errors, mutually exclusive contradictory passages, multiple and evolving versions of many tales as well as the general folk tale structure of the stories themselves. That makes the SOURCE Coyote or Loki. Bullshit Phat. Even taking quotes from me out of context you cannot possibly show I ever made so utterly stupid an argument as what you originally claimed I made. Phat in Message 1122