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Author Topic:   Flat Earth Believers
RAZD
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Posts: 19669
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1 of 10 (842142)
10-27-2018 10:08 AM


quote:
Polling the flat earth redux

"If it's difficult to believe that people embrace a flat Earth, it's going to be difficult to trust a poll that claims to validate that belief," wrote NCSE's Glenn Branch and Craig A. Foster of the US Air Force Academy in a blog post for Scientific American (October 24, 2018).

Continuing their previous discussion of what seems to have been the first systematic attempt to assess the American population's views on the shape of the Earth, Branch and Foster wrote, "readers of our previous column were skeptical of the poll's results — suspicious about the way in which the participants were selected, critical of the question used to assess belief about the shape of the Earth, and speculating about the possibility of insincerity skewing the outcome."

"There were genuine flaws in YouGov's poll, and there is clearly room for improvement," Branch and Foster concluded. But they added that the poll credibly indicates that belief in a flat Earth is present, if at a low level, in the American population.


Another indictment of the status of education in America.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by RAZD, posted 10-27-2018 10:15 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19669
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2 of 10 (842143)
10-27-2018 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
10-27-2018 10:08 AM


rocket man to prove flat earth?
Couldn't find the thread with this guy who built and rode a rocket, purportedly to prove the earth was flat ...

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 10-27-2018 10:08 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-27-2018 6:10 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1775
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 3 of 10 (842206)
10-27-2018 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by RAZD
10-27-2018 10:15 AM


Re: rocket man to prove flat earth?
Couldn't find the thread with this guy who built and rode a rocket, purportedly to prove the earth was flat ...

Steam powered no less. I figured what he was really trying to prove was that he was going to be squashed flat when he "landed."

If the Earth is flat we should be able to cancel flooding from global warming by drilling a hole in the ocean and draining some of the water.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by RAZD, posted 10-27-2018 10:15 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AZPaul3, posted 10-27-2018 6:28 PM Tanypteryx has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3475
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 4 of 10 (842207)
10-27-2018 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tanypteryx
10-27-2018 6:10 PM


Re: rocket man to prove flat earth?
If the Earth is flat we should be able to cancel flooding from global warming by drilling a hole in the ocean and draining some of the water.

That sounds doable but it turns out to be impractical. The Russians dug the deepest borehole ever at 12,345 meters and had to close up shop because they kept losing the drill heads. This turtle's shell is hella thick!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-27-2018 6:10 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-27-2018 6:42 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1775
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 5 of 10 (842208)
10-27-2018 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by AZPaul3
10-27-2018 6:28 PM


Re: rocket man to prove flat earth?
The Russians dug the deepest borehole ever at 12,345 meters and had to close up shop because they kept losing the drill heads.

Well sure! They obviously kept falling out the bottom....obviously.

Don't see you here much these days.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by AZPaul3, posted 10-27-2018 6:28 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by AZPaul3, posted 10-27-2018 9:54 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3475
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 6 of 10 (842216)
10-27-2018 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tanypteryx
10-27-2018 6:42 PM


Re: rocket man to prove flat earth?
Don't see you here much these days.

Life is ... challenging.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-27-2018 6:42 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Diomedes, posted 10-28-2018 10:38 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Diomedes
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Posts: 742
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 2.8


(6)
Message 7 of 10 (842229)
10-28-2018 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by AZPaul3
10-27-2018 9:54 PM


Re: rocket man to prove flat earth?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by AZPaul3, posted 10-27-2018 9:54 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1278
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 10 (842277)
10-28-2018 6:55 PM


Flat Earth is one issue. Watery chaos universe before EARTH another issue.
Multiple scriptures describe a watery origin.

Here is John Chrysostom (who was as responsible as anybody for the very Biblical Canon itself)

quote:

Homilies Concerning the Statutes, Homily IX, paras.7-8,

A Select Library Of The Nicene And Post-Nicene Fathers Of The Christian Church,
Series I, Vol IX,

ed. Philip Schaff, D.D.,LL.D.,

American reprint of the Edinburgh edition (1978), W. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.,Grand Rapids, MI,

pp.403-404

When therefore thou beholdest not a small pebble, but the whole earth borne upon the waters, and not submerged, admire the power of Him who wrought these marvellous things in a supernatural manner! And whence does this appear, that the earth is borne upon the waters? The prophet declares this when he says, "He hath founded it upon the seas, and prepared it upon the floods." And again: "To him who hath founded the earth upon the waters." What sayest thou? The water is not able to support a small pebble on its surface, and yet bears up the earth, great as it is; and mountains, and hills, and cities, and plants, and men, and brutes; and it is not submerged!


The flat earth theory had supporters too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/...lat_Earth#Early_Christian_Church

There will be a response using certain arguments based on the Genesis order:

1 "in the beginning God created the heavens and the EARTH" before there was a mentioning of water.

2 and then water was placed on the land from the very start.

3 then the land reappeared after water was moved around.

(the waters being above and below the "firmament" get explained away as do the stars being placed in the firmament)

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1278
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 10 (842620)
11-04-2018 12:10 AM


Scripture (Job 26:10) interprets scripture (Isaiah 40:22) to teach a flat earth.
First Genesis 1.

(Job 26:10 will come later)

The World Council of Churches, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, and others have Bible translations that translate the (King James) "firmament" as "dome".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_American_Bible

The NAB is the only translation approved for Mass.

From the entire first page.

quote:

Holy Bible
New American Bible
Revised Edition
Catholic Readers Edition

Translated from the Original Languages
with Critical Use
of All the Ancient Sources

AUTHORIZED BY THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES
OF THE
CONFRATERNITY OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE

AND APPROVED BY THE ADMINISTRATIVE BOARD
OF THE
UNITED STATES CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS

AND THE
UNITED STATES CATHOLIC CONFERERCE

NAB

www.saintjeromepress.com


Here are the relevant Genesis verses.

quote:

Holy Bible
New American Bible
Catholic Readers Edition

Gen 1:6

Then God said: Let there be a dome in the middle of the waters, to separate one body of water from the other.

1:7

God made the dome and it separated the waters below the dome from the water above the dome.

And so it happened

1:8

God called the dome sky.

Evening came, and morning – the second day

….

1:14

Then God said: let there be lights in the dome of the sky, to separate day from night.

Let them mark the seasons, the days and the years.

1:15

And serve as lights in the dome of the sky, to illuminate the earth.

And so it happened.

1:16

God made the two great lights, the greater one to govern the day, and the lesser one to govern the night, and the stars.

1:17

God set them in the dome of the sky, to illuminate the earth,

1:18

to govern the day and the night,

and to separate the light from the darkness.

God saw that it was good.

1:19

Evening came and morning followed – the fourth day


The NRSV is the translation of the biggest Protestant group of churches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Revised_Standard_Version

I will skip quoting this, since it can be found online.

It uses "dome".

Here is a translation using dome

quote:

Good News Bible
Today's English Version

Genesis 1:6-7

Let there be a dome to divide the water and to keep it in two separate places – and it was done

So God made a dome and it separated the water under it from the water above it.

1:8

He named the dome “Sky”


Here is a very evangelical commentary

quote:

The Layman's Bible Commentary
Volume 2
The Book of Genesis
Charles T. Fritsch
John Knox Press
Atlanta
ISBN 0-8042-2002-1

PREFACE

The LAYMANS BIBLE COMMENTARY is based on the conclusion that the Bible is the Word of good news for the whole world.

….
Knowledge of and about the Bible is, of course, not enough. The grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit are essential to the renewal of life through the Scriptures.

....

p.23

On the second day (1:6-8) God makes the firmament, which the ancients thought of as a solid bowl-like structure overarching the earth (see Ps. 104:5 Job 26:11). To this vault of heaven, separating the upper waters from the waters below, are attached the luminaries which rule day and night.

….

p.24

the luminaries are to serve as a cosmic clock, designating the calendar days and years, and regulating the appointed seasons with their liturgical feasts. The world view underlying this verse is obviously geocentric


The translation "expanse" is used in the NASB.

For every place "firmament" is used in the King James, which used the Latin Vulgate word (firmamentum) for its translation.

The "dome" translation is another possibility.

All come from the exact same Hebrew word.

So, when you see "expanse" in the NASB (where "dome" is used in the verses above), know that it all is from the same Hebrew word in ALL THE VERSES.

Many Creationists have this "vapor canopy" theory, but they don't seem to understand that there is no difference between the Hebrew word (translated and used as "firmament" in the King James) in Genesis 1:6-7 and 1:17.

Here is an example of confusion.

(page 42 quotes from 2 Peter 3, but note the last sentence I quote)

quote:

Heaven
by John MacArthur, Jr.
Moody Press, Chicago
0-8024-5383-x

p.42

Verses 5-6 continue, “When they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.” Those who say there has been no cataclysmic judgment on the earth forget (perhaps purposefully) about the Flood, when God drowned the entire human race, sparing only Noah and his family. Prior to the Flood, a canopy of water encircled the earth, protecting it from the sun's ultraviolet rays.


So, the Sun was outside the Canopy?

After mentioning 550 uses of heaven in Greek and Hebrew (ouranos and shamayim) on page 13, here is the entire text of page 14.

quote:

p.14

A. A Place

Both those words are used to refer to three different places. In 2 Corinthians 2 Paul says, “Such a man [probably a reference to himself] was caught up to the third heaven” (emphasis added). That clearly demonstrates that there are three heavens.

1: The atmospheric heaven

Sometimes when the Bible speaks of heaven, it refers to the region called the troposphere – the atmosphere – around the earth, the air we breathe. For example, Isaiah 55:9 says, “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven ...” Here the word heaven refers to the atmosphere, which is where the hydrological cycle occurs. Psalm 147:8 says that God “covers the heavens with clouds.” That is the first heaven.

2. The planetary system

The record heaven contains the stars, moons, and planets. Scripture also mentions this heaven. For example, Genesis 1 says, “God said, Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens. ...God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. And God places them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth” (vv. 14, 16-17). That's the second heaven.

3. The divine heaven
The third heaven is the place where God dwells with His holy angels and believers who have died.


This book uses the NASB for all scriptural quotations. The index shows page 14 (which I entirely quoted) as the only page that quotes from anything in Genesis 1. ("1:14,16-17" specifically). Job 15:15 is the only Job verse, and it is irrelevant.

"expanse" is the translation in the NASB for the earlier verses 6 and 7 (which the book only alludes to, in the page 42 quote above, but never mentions again), which is the typical "Vapor Canopy" set of verses creationists imagine (however, Jospephus had a ice canopy interpretation as well).

There is a hair splitting when the exact same "expanse" in seen to be 2 totally different expanses.

The fact is that the same expanse/firmament/canopy/dome that contains the Sun, Moon, and stars also held the waters above from the waters below.

There isn't another totally different expanse/firmament/canopy that is closer to the earth than an OUTSIDE Sun, according to Genesis 1.

NOW JOB 26:10

quote:

Good News Bible
Today's English Version

Job 26:10

He divided light from darkness
by a circle drawn on the face of the sea

26:11

When he threatens the pillars that hold up the sky,

26:12

It is his strength that conquered the sea

by his skill he destroyed the monster Rahab

26:13

It is his breath that made the sky clear

and his hand that killed the escaping monster.


A circle comes out of the waters?

What this is, will be proved later, when we visit Isaiah 40:22.

More translations:

quote:

RSV

Job 26:10

He has described a circle upon the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness


quote:

Holy Bible
New American Bible
Revised Edition
Catholic Readers Edition

Job 26:10

He has marked out a circle on the surface
of the deep
at the boundary of light and darkness


NKJV

JOB 26:10

He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters.

At the boundary of light and darkness

[/quote]

A "circular horizon" from the New King James Version.

Clearly flat, then.

But what is this flat circular horizon around?

Isaiah 40:22

King James vesion

quote:

It is He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth


The flat circle which has a "horizon" (New King James) around it is the "earth" according to the King James.

Just like Genesis strongly indicates.


    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1278
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 10 of 10 (842621)
11-04-2018 12:11 AM


Scripture (Job 26:10) interprets scripture (Isaiah 40:22) to teach a flat earth.
First Genesis 1.

(Job 26:10 will come later)

The World Council of Churches, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, and others have Bible translations that translate the (King James) "firmament" as "dome".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_American_Bible

The NAB is the only translation approved for Mass.

From the entire first page.

quote:

Holy Bible
New American Bible
Revised Edition
Catholic Readers Edition

Translated from the Original Languages
with Critical Use
of All the Ancient Sources

AUTHORIZED BY THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES
OF THE
CONFRATERNITY OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE

AND APPROVED BY THE ADMINISTRATIVE BOARD
OF THE
UNITED STATES CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS

AND THE
UNITED STATES CATHOLIC CONFERERCE

NAB

www.saintjeromepress.com


Here are the relevant Genesis verses.

quote:

Holy Bible
New American Bible
Catholic Readers Edition

Gen 1:6

Then God said: Let there be a dome in the middle of the waters, to separate one body of water from the other.

1:7

God made the dome and it separated the waters below the dome from the water above the dome.

And so it happened

1:8

God called the dome sky.

Evening came, and morning – the second day

….

1:14

Then God said: let there be lights in the dome of the sky, to separate day from night.

Let them mark the seasons, the days and the years.

1:15

And serve as lights in the dome of the sky, to illuminate the earth.

And so it happened.

1:16

God made the two great lights, the greater one to govern the day, and the lesser one to govern the night, and the stars.

1:17

God set them in the dome of the sky, to illuminate the earth,

1:18

to govern the day and the night,

and to separate the light from the darkness.

God saw that it was good.

1:19

Evening came and morning followed – the fourth day


The NRSV is the translation of the biggest Protestant group of churches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Revised_Standard_Version

I will skip quoting this, since it can be found online.

It uses "dome".

Here is a translation using dome

quote:

Good News Bible
Today's English Version

Genesis 1:6-7

Let there be a dome to divide the water and to keep it in two separate places – and it was done

So God made a dome and it separated the water under it from the water above it.

1:8

He named the dome “Sky”


Here is a very evangelical commentary

quote:

The Layman's Bible Commentary
Volume 2
The Book of Genesis
Charles T. Fritsch
John Knox Press
Atlanta
ISBN 0-8042-2002-1

PREFACE

The LAYMANS BIBLE COMMENTARY is based on the conclusion that the Bible is the Word of good news for the whole world.

….
Knowledge of and about the Bible is, of course, not enough. The grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit are essential to the renewal of life through the Scriptures.

....

p.23

On the second day (1:6-8) God makes the firmament, which the ancients thought of as a solid bowl-like structure overarching the earth (see Ps. 104:5 Job 26:11). To this vault of heaven, separating the upper waters from the waters below, are attached the luminaries which rule day and night.

….

p.24

the luminaries are to serve as a cosmic clock, designating the calendar days and years, and regulating the appointed seasons with their liturgical feasts. The world view underlying this verse is obviously geocentric


The translation "expanse" is used in the NASB.

For every place "firmament" is used in the King James, which used the Latin Vulgate word (firmamentum) for its translation.

The "dome" translation is another possibility.

All come from the exact same Hebrew word.

So, when you see "expanse" in the NASB (where "dome" is used in the verses above), know that it all is from the same Hebrew word in ALL THE VERSES.

Many Creationists have this "vapor canopy" theory, but they don't seem to understand that there is no difference between the Hebrew word (translated and used as "firmament" in the King James) in Genesis 1:6-7 and 1:17.

Here is an example of confusion.

(page 42 quotes from 2 Peter 3, but note the last sentence I quote)

quote:

Heaven
by John MacArthur, Jr.
Moody Press, Chicago
0-8024-5383-x

p.42

Verses 5-6 continue, “When they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.” Those who say there has been no cataclysmic judgment on the earth forget (perhaps purposefully) about the Flood, when God drowned the entire human race, sparing only Noah and his family. Prior to the Flood, a canopy of water encircled the earth, protecting it from the sun's ultraviolet rays.


So, the Sun was outside the Canopy?

After mentioning 550 uses of heaven in Greek and Hebrew (ouranos and shamayim) on page 13, here is the entire text of page 14.

quote:

p.14

A. A Place

Both those words are used to refer to three different places. In 2 Corinthians 2 Paul says, “Such a man [probably a reference to himself] was caught up to the third heaven” (emphasis added). That clearly demonstrates that there are three heavens.

1: The atmospheric heaven

Sometimes when the Bible speaks of heaven, it refers to the region called the troposphere – the atmosphere – around the earth, the air we breathe. For example, Isaiah 55:9 says, “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven ...” Here the word heaven refers to the atmosphere, which is where the hydrological cycle occurs. Psalm 147:8 says that God “covers the heavens with clouds.” That is the first heaven.

2. The planetary system

The record heaven contains the stars, moons, and planets. Scripture also mentions this heaven. For example, Genesis 1 says, “God said, Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens. ...God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. And God places them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth” (vv. 14, 16-17). That's the second heaven.

3. The divine heaven
The third heaven is the place where God dwells with His holy angels and believers who have died.


This book uses the NASB for all scriptural quotations. The index shows page 14 (which I entirely quoted) as the only page that quotes from anything in Genesis 1. ("1:14,16-17" specifically). Job 15:15 is the only Job verse, and it is irrelevant.

"expanse" is the translation in the NASB for the earlier verses 6 and 7 (which the book only alludes to, in the page 42 quote above, but never mentions again), which is the typical "Vapor Canopy" set of verses creationists imagine (however, Jospephus had a ice canopy interpretation as well).

There is a hair splitting when the exact same "expanse" in seen to be 2 totally different expanses.

The fact is that the same expanse/firmament/canopy/dome that contains the Sun, Moon, and stars also held the waters above from the waters below.

There isn't another totally different expanse/firmament/canopy that is closer to the earth than an OUTSIDE Sun, according to Genesis 1.

NOW JOB 26:10

quote:

Good News Bible
Today's English Version

Job 26:10

He divided light from darkness
by a circle drawn on the face of the sea

26:11

When he threatens the pillars that hold up the sky,

26:12

It is his strength that conquered the sea

by his skill he destroyed the monster Rahab

26:13

It is his breath that made the sky clear

and his hand that killed the escaping monster.


A circle comes out of the waters?

What this is, will be proved later, when we visit Isaiah 40:22.

More translations:

quote:

RSV

Job 26:10

He has described a circle upon the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness


quote:

Holy Bible
New American Bible
Revised Edition
Catholic Readers Edition

Job 26:10

He has marked out a circle on the surface
of the deep
at the boundary of light and darkness


NKJV

JOB 26:10

He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters.

At the boundary of light and darkness

[/quote]

A "circular horizon" from the New King James Version.

Clearly flat, then.

But what is this flat circular horizon around?

Isaiah 40:22

King James vesion

quote:

It is He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth


The flat circle which has a "horizon" (New King James) around it is the "earth" according to the King James.

Just like Genesis strongly indicates.


    
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