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Author | Topic: A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: No. The difference is in the ideology itself. There is no difference. All religious fundamentalists cry herecy and try to remove those that have different ideas one way or another. The rest is just special pleading.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: That's a lie, and all you've done is assert it. I answered your one puny false example. Give us some evidence for your false accusation. So now I'm confused. I gave you several instances of religions murdering heretics, you gave me some more. What is your complaint?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: Sorry if I've misread something but I don't want to review it all right now. What I remember is that you cited instances of murders of heretics by Islam and Roman Catholicism, plus a mention of some Puritans doing the same without giving any numbers, which I'm sure are minuscule and very short lived. That's all i remember from you, sorry if I missed something. I don't recall adding anything, just agreeing with the Islamic and Catholic examples. What you missed was my entire point. Just to recap, I said that as soon as religious people start crying herecy, bad thing happen and I gave you a few examples. You gave a few more. I consider that case proven.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: All you have, as I said, is Islam and the RCC and a minuscule number of Protestants, which was MY point. Your attempt to put all "fundamentalists" in the same basket does not work. So I've given you examples of Catholic, Protestand and Islamic examples of states murdering people for having a different religion to themselves. How many more do you need? This is a lovely one:
quote: I had no idea firstly that people were still being murdered for heresy by the Spanish Inqisition in the 19th century, nor that the Catholic church still had those powers. The perfect example of why religions need to be removed entirely from secular roles in societies.
quote: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Faith writes: And I pointed out that the Protestant examples are always extremely few and quickly given up because it is recognized they violate the teachings of Biblical Christianity. Biblical Christianity teaches its followers that there is only one god and that God is a jealous god and that God commands its followers to kill anyone of speaking of different Gods. The only thing preventing religions enforcing their fundamentalist beliefs on others and dealing with heretics the way they are commanded is lack of access to physical worldly power. When zealots like yourself get their hands on that we see the results.
quote: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: Technically, reading the book, I could see how you would conclude this. Technically my arse! It's there in black and white repeated over and over.
I was taught "Biblical Christianity" and got a different impression from it. Then you were taught something that is not biblical.
If Free Will is truly a valid concept in describing human relationship with God, and if God is anthropomorphized as having human characteristics and responses, He would be afraid that a third party--Satan---is quite capable of stealing humanity from Him. For whatever reason, He allowed the possibility for Satan to even exist and have the influence countering Gods perfect will. Don't ask me why...perhaps God needed to play this game to allow humans to freely love Him without His direct influence or power that they do. Don't you feel embarassed writing this stuff? I mean it's just silly really isn't it? You're talking about a God, not a petulent, spoilt child in a fairy story.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Phat writes: In your mind you have to make it silly. But it *is* silly; to an outsider it sounds totally childish. You've been so steeped in this junk that you've normalised it.
If God were to be taken seriously, you would lose your throne. If it was taken seriously I'd be burnt alive, as per tradition.
Hey, I get your argument. In many ways, it does sound silly. Made up. Sometimes truth is found through fiction, however. Don't ever forget that. Truth is found in truth, why put your belief in fiction?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Phat writes: Im not fully convinced that it is/was fiction. I've heard arguments from both sides. So you think it's ok to execute those with a different belief to your own? (As commanded by your God)Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Phat writes: The problem here is that you are reading the book and telling me what my God must do and what I must believe. Your interpretation, however, is not what I must believe. I understand what you must believe, that's not in doubt. The problem is that what you must believe is not what's written in plain language - not an interpretaion, in simple, understandable terms - in your book. And the book is all you've got. Your book commands you to kill heretics, why aren't you doing that?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Phat writes: Essentially I agree with GDR in that the message for Christians today is not found in the commands to the Jewish people of Israel in the Old Testament. It is found through Jesus Christ. That's odd aren't you quoting Babel as evidence of something or other in another thread? I any case, isn't the bible the word of God anymore? Maybe just written by some scribes that can be dismissed out of hand?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Phat writes: How do I explain? You almost don't need to, I know how you will rationalise the contradiction between what the bible says you must do/believe and what you actually do/believe. There are coping mechanisms 1. Distance the OT from the NT. This is necessary because the OT is very obviously violent mythology and portrays a god that only a few fundamentalists want to believe in. It also contains factual problems that prove it's man-made and error prone. Creation, flood, immutibility of species etc. In short, it's an embarrassment to modern thinking. 2. Latch on to the message of Jesus. Gentle Jesus meek and mild. This meshes better with modern life and unlike the OT contains viable moral values. Don't read the OT. Don't preach it in your church, just put it to one side and only refer to it where it confirms a useful NT text. 3. Pick and mix. The NT links to the OT. All that stuff about one god, heaven and hell, the commandments the prophecies that make Jesus more than just another guy. You have to keep all that stuff. You can believe that stuff but not the difficult stuff like murdering heretics. That stuff can be pushed to one side and forgotten about.
The point is, you won't win this argument by pinning me down to the legalities of what was written. First, you have to engage the character who speaks from the book. I will argue(though cannot prove) that the character is who initially inspired the scribes to write in the first place. Legalities? It's a straightforward command to kill heretics. Ok I don't blame you for not wanting to accept it and act on it, but there are many who have and believed they were doing God's work. You've simply chosen not to believe that particular part of the book. Chosen not too. Others chose differently. Who's right? Just like you choose not to give all you have to the poor - an instruction from the NT, from the most important character in your book that you say you are following. You're pick and mixing and it feels uncomfortable when it's pointed out because you then have to rationalise.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: God commanded His Old Testament nation of Israel to do that. What a nice chap he is.
We are not the Old Testament theocracy of Israel and Christians do not apply those commands to ourselves. Right. He's ok with other gods these days is he? To save time, are there other bits of the bible that it's ok to disobey?
I'll not say never because you may be able to dig up a couple of crackpots or a sect that temporarily thought it was supposed to obey those commands, but as a general rule no, it's not Christian and Bible-believing Protestantism does not follow those commands. Protestants don't murder people because it's wrong, just like everyone else.
Besides, you ought to be able to tell when you are reading about a historical event and not a direct command to the reader, or do you feel obligated to obey, say, commands reported to have been given by military leaders in some historical account of some historical war? Are you sure you want to take this line? Whatever happened to reading the bible literally?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: Well, it is a kind and merciful act if you understand it Only a religious fundamentalist can condone the mass murder of people who believe in something different to themselves.
Weird, I thought you said fundamentalists would happily kill heretics if we had the power. Absolutely they will, history is littered with them. Luckily not all protestants are fundamentalists.
Reading it "literally" really means reading it as it was written Stop right there and I'll agree with you. Sadly you don't stop right there you add context. Here you go
We don't read historical accounts of God's dealings with His ancient people as commands to ourselves, Everything in your book is god dealing with ancient people, though it's not history.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: Only a morally confused person totally ignorant of truth and reality would reduce justice to murder. In what way is the mass murder of people whose only 'sin' is to be born into a different religion to yourself justice? Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Phat writes: We are getting a bit off topic, but what about the United States and the B-52 Bomber strikes in the first Iraq War? Those airstrikes likely qualify as Mass Murder. Yet the United States is thankfully not a Theocracy. So what gives? There several answers to that, the first being that what they did was evil and wrong. That aside, the equivalent action would have been to wipe the Iraqis off the face of the earth women and children too and only because they're not Christian. How does that feel?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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