|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 13/65 Hour: 0/1 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: I argue that even if you found solid evidence that the resurrection was real, you would still have issues with the God of the Bible and would fight tooth and nail to preserve your intellectual independence. Am I wrong? If it was proven beyond all doubt that the resurrection and all the parephenalia surrounding it was real, why would I still try to say that it's false? That would be an absurd position to take. I follow evidence wherever it takes me; my atheism isn't a belief, it's a conclusion. I'd still reject all the baloney in the OT. But you've changed the point, which was that if the resurrection is not historical, then Christianity fails as a hypothesis.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: My argument is based on ringos argument that the message itself is valid Of course the message is valid, it's universal and derivative!
....im simply explaining how a metaphorical resurrection would still have value. Sure it would have the same value as all the others. The problem is that without the supposed resurection there would be no Christian religion - it would have just been another run of the mill sect that disappeared without trace.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: So why did it not disappear again? Without Constantine it would have done, it then became a game of power, money and politics. For most of its life the Christian church was controlled by a papal state and its army. Just about as far away from Jesus's message as a gun toting Pastor. And now in those Christian countries that have created mature methods of self-governance the superstition is dying out because it can't stand on its own. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
|
Phat writes: If it really is a superstition, I will still cling to it until I die. I'm sure you will, you seem you need it. But as the generations pass the fundamental beliefs of people like ICANT and Faith will fade out - as they have in more progressive countries - and be replaced by secularism and variants of GDRs 'nice' liberal cuktural Christianity.
The whole story is incredible if true. Incredible it is.
And as far as what's true and what's not, I believe in Jesus Christ that He lives today. Obviously he doesn't. You can't even explain what that means.
We aren't done arguing quite yet. For as long as you stick to your first statement we'll never be done.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
|
Phat writes: Of course, you will argue that there is no reason to invoke "God" once the limits of naturalistic explanations have been reached... Then why say it? Obviously invoking god(s) everytime we don't understand something is just plain dumb.
but it is you who insists that God by definition is limited to a character in a book. Sigh. No Phat that is not what I say. I say all that the knowledge of *your* god is in *your* book. Others have different books and different gods.
Hopefully, we will debate these things eternally rather than simply dying and dissolving into dust...ceasing to exist. Luckily you won't be disappointed either way.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Perhaps. All I know is that I often pray when a problem seems more than my intellectual and physical capacities can handle. Prayer seems to free my mind of the burden and weight upon my shoulders. Critics may say that using God this way is a "cop-out" and that (as jar used to say) we need to do it ourselves. I won't disagree...but it is my habit to *do it* in Communion with Gods innate wisdom through prayer. (at this point my critics are again rolling their eyes!) Whatever floats your boat...
And I would say that "No, He is in my heart (and imagination). " There. I said it. I used to be afraid that declaring God to be in my imagination proved that He was limited to such a domain. Lately, however, I have concluded that His wisdom and inner presence is a Holy Communion *within* my mind rather than a simple childish story and fantasy *of* my mind. Have you worked out yet that you can conclude whatever you like whenever you feel like it?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Of course! That's the essence of free will. Making shit up is the essence of fiction Phat.
You may argue that i'm simply making stuff up...which is a hard one to challenge. Im working on it though! Given that you did actually make it up, there's nothing much to work on is there? I mean, you can't point to any other source can you? You're talking yourself into something.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: Paul puts it this way in Ephesians 1. I find it interesting that so much weight is put into what Paul is supposed to have said. The man never even met Jesus yet he's supposed to have all this knowledge of his intentions and message. He's actually more important than Jesus, without him Christianity wouldn't exist at all. He didn't actually need Jesus to have lived at all to create the story we hear today. Everything he says is hearsay - and/or - invention.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Such hubris! I can see your not having much respect for contemporary apologists---but having little or no respect for Paul smacks of uninformed arrogance. Where are your credentials? What do you do for a living? Sell cars?Sometimes, people have arguments from ignorance. Other times they have arguments from arrogance. So where do you get your information? At best it is biased opinion based on this whole idea that without "evidence" there is no case for Christianity. Oh hello, Phat doesn't seem to know anything about Paul. Do you think he ever met Jesus?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: He claims that Jesus talked to him. Paul never met Jesus. Below is a chunk of stuff from this site
quote: I thought I'd use information from this evangelical source so that you can at least trust its motives as you doubt mine.
quote: If you read more balanced accounts you'll get a quite different picture of Paul than the one you appear to have in your head. Do you ever read anything other than theocratic sites, stuff that deals with historicity?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: My assumption was that he had not. Right so where did all that righteous indignation come from? Paul never met Jesus, yet the Christian church would not exist without him. Everything real world that he bases his missionary work on is hearsay.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: He met Jesus in Spirit. So he's reputed to have said. In fact he had many 'visions' one of which had him ascended into heaven. But he never met Jesus or heard him speak anywhere outside his own head. Nothing can be made of that other than he suffered from delusions. Unlike Jesus though, there's a reasonable amount evidence that he actually existed or at least that someone we call Paul existed and wrote things down. In fact four different individuals wrote what is now attributed to Paul but don't let that bother you.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: More precisely, the Christian Church would never exist if Jesus had never risen. Nobody would have ever heard of Him. You claim essentially that Paul took up the "myth" and ran with it to spread his own franchise, but that franchise never would have taken off either had the story never happened. That's nonsense. There are plenty of religions that have developed purely from myth without the slightest chance of their miraculous claims being true - Mormonism is just one in modern times. All that's required is a story and enough people to propagate it. The fact that the main instigator had never heard any of the stories first hand should ring huge alarm bells. When you then find that 'Paul's writings are by four different people you should be even more alarmed. In fact 'Paul' didn't need Jesus to exist at all let alone be ressurected, all he needed was the stories.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Mormons piggybacked on Christianity. Without the Bible, the Book of Mormon never would have stood on its own. And Christianity piggybacked on Judaism (and Paganism). The New Testament could never have stood on its own Edited by Tangle, : embarassing spelling....Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Judaism was not arguably made up. Of course it was, they all are. That's why there's so many of them.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024