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Author Topic:   Passover Mystery
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 80 (78865)
01-16-2004 11:31 AM


Okey Dokey Brian, thank you.
I have some of the books now, Dever makes some interesting observations.
I was really happy he spent so much time on the Queen Of heaven in his book, " What Did The Biblical Writers Know And When Did They Know It."
Heres my question, in this book he shows some archeological evidence of female goddess figurines, the archeologist attribute these zoomorphic artifacts found in a cave to the Israelites in Jerusalem, ca late 7th century ......
Now I was wondering ,
Would there not be found similar artifactual evidence to support the presence of the supposedly large amount of Israelites in Egypt?
Abshalom, by the way,
Didn't you ask me to discuss a certain topic by starting a new thread? I forgot where?
OH, and I want to add, in this book it is the first time I ever heard of , "Deuteronomistic propaganda," How delightfully interesting ...
It would seem Dever and I see very much eye to eye on the Great Mother issue.
[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-16-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Abshalom, posted 01-16-2004 12:54 PM Stormdancer has not replied
 Message 65 by Brian, posted 01-21-2004 8:16 AM Stormdancer has replied

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 80 (80037)
01-22-2004 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Brian
01-21-2004 8:16 AM


Thank you ever so much Brian.
I am reading some books now that you and CA suggested.
I must say it leaves me with even more questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Brian, posted 01-21-2004 8:16 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Brian, posted 01-22-2004 11:57 AM Stormdancer has replied

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 80 (81095)
01-27-2004 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Brian
01-22-2004 11:57 AM


I happened upon this web page what do you guys think?
YahwehYawUgarit
"It is understood that these tablets belong to the same general period as the Amarna letters; and if that is correct, the name Ahi-Jami, which is very probably equivalent to
Ahijah, is most interesting, since it contains the divine name of Israel's God, written Ja-mi. In the Murashu archives found at Nippur, belonging to the reigns of Artaxerxes and Darius, the divine element in Hebrew names is written Ja-a-ma for Jawa." (p.54. Albert T. Clay. The Empire of the Amorites. New Haven. Yale University Press. 1919)
The origins of Yahwehism are not to be sought in the Negeb or Sinai, the biblical clues are false, archaeology reveals the events could not have occurred in the periods the Bible claims -biblical scholars have been led on a MERRY CHASE into the Negeb and Sinai- the origins are in the north, preserved at Ugarit in Syria and to a degree in Phoenicia as well.
In my opinion, what is being remembered in the biblical texts about Yahweh dawning from Seir and Paran (the Sinai), is the presence in the Southern Sinai and the Arabah of Late Bronze Age miners from South Canaan, working the Egyptian mines in the 18th-20th dynasties. These miners left Proto-Sinaitic inscriptions at Serabit el Khadim (15th century BCE) and the Hathor shrine, showing that they had no problem assimilating their god, EL to Egyptian gods and goddesses. "Yah" as an inscription, "Yah of Gat (Gath)," first surfaces in Canaan on a Late Bronze Age ewer found in a temple's debris at Lachish, NOT the Sinai and Edom.
Israel did, however, preserve a notion that their ancestors were Syrians ("Arameans"), the archaeological evidence extrapolated from the Syrian myths found in Ugarit about the struggle for supremacy to claim the title "Lord of the Earth", between Yaw/Yam and Baal seems to bear out the northern Israelite theophoric Yaw vs. Baal scenarios and confirms that Aramaean/Syrian religious beliefs are, to a degree, what is behind Yahwehism.
Deut 26:5, RSV,
"And you shall make response before the Lord your God. 'A wandering ARAMEAN was my father; and he went down into Egypt and sojourned there, few in number; and there he became a nation, great, mighty, and populous.
Cf. my article titled "Israel's Iron IA Aramean Origins (the Archaeological Evidence For)," which argues that the Pentateuch is fusing two different origins stories together, Bronze Age Canaanite and Iron I Aramean, it being my understanding that the hundreds of villages suddenly appearing in the Hill Country of Canaan in Iron IA are Arameans driven from Aram/Syria by famine and war.
By 562 BCE when the Exodus story in its present form was written in the Exile (cf. 2 Kings 25:27), the narrator was evidently unaware that his God,
Yahweh-Elohim was an amalgum of earlier pagan Late Bronze Age gods from Syria (Ugarit), Canaan and Egypt (the Hyksos' Baal-Zephon/Baal-Hadad, assimilated to the Egyptian god Set/Seth).
[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-27-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Brian, posted 01-22-2004 11:57 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Brian, posted 01-28-2004 8:56 AM Stormdancer has replied

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 80 (81108)
01-27-2004 12:00 PM


I should have posted the whole conclusion,,,,sorry.
Conclusions-
Yahwehism did not arise from a series of revelations to Abraham in Canaan and the Negeb ca. 2000 BCE -there was no well of Beersheba before 1200 BCE, the Philistines did not arrive in Canaan until ca. 1174 BCE- this is a myth. Neither did it arise through a revelation to Moses in the 15th century BCE while he was wandering the Sinai wilderness (ca. 1446 BCE, cf. 1 Kings 6:1), because archaeology reveals no Late Bronze Age presence at Mt. Sinai (2 million people). The fact that Northern Israelite names bear the theophoric Yaw suggests that they remained truer to their polythesistic religious heritage.
I have posited that Yahweh is Yaw/Yam of the Ugaritic Myths (1500-1200 BCE).
Later ages fused Ugaritic El (Bull-El), Yaw and Baal together into the persona of Yahweh-Elohim. In taking on the attributes and feats of these gods, Yahweh also took on their wives and consorts. Athirat (Ashtirat, Attart, Asherah) wife of El, became fused with Baal's consort, Anat ("the Queen of Heaven" in Late Bronze Age myths), Yaw/Yam's wife was Ashtoreth/Asherah, "the bride claimed by the tyrant sea" in an Egyptian papyrus.
Yahweh was also called Baali by Israel (Hosea 2:16.) Attart-shem-Baal ("Attart-name of-Baal") suggested to Leick, that Attart may be a MANIFESTATION of Baal. If correct, male and female gods could, at times, be aspects of each other. Perhaps Yahweh as Baali became a manifestation of Attart-shem-Baal ? Thus Attart as Asherah is a manifestation of Baali-Yahweh (God is bi-sexual, male and female) ? Langdon shows a coin from Gaza with a double faced head, male and bearded facing left, female to the right. Perhaps he is right in understanding this to be Yaw/Ashtart ?
Langdon-
"Yaw was associated with the Canaanitish Mother-goddess. `Ashart-`Anat, as we know from the name of the deity of the Jews at Elephantine, `Anat-Yaw, where two other father-mother titles of divinities occur, such as Ashim-Bethel, `Anat-Bethel, in which the titles of Astarte are combined with the sun-god Bethel. It is precisely at Gaza. where Yaw as a sun-god appears on a coin (fig. 23), that coins frequently bear the figure of this `Ashtart-Yaw, Anat-Yaw, Anat-Bethel, corresponding to the Phoenician Melk-Ashtart, Eshmun-Ashtart. Fig. 24, of the Persian period, is charcteristic of this male-female, or female-male deity, and the heads, being joined, prove that under these names was worshipped a deity who combines the attributes of both." (p.44, fig. 24. Stephen Herbert Langdon. The Mythology of All Races- Semitic. Vol. 5. Boston. Marshall Jones Company. 1931. pp. 454)
Leick-
"Attart-shem-Baal (Canaanite Goddess). Her name means 'Astart name of Baal.' In the Baal myths she appears as a manifestation and consort of Baal. Her character resembles that of Anat, as a goddess of war and the chase. Her fertility aspect is more pronounced in the Old Testament, where she is called Ashtoreth. In an Egyptian papyrus from the 19th Dynasty she is called the 'bride of the tyrant sea.' (p.16, "Attart-shem-Baal," Leick)
A number of scholars have suggested that the biblical narratives identifying Yahweh as dawning from Seir and Paran suggest he was originally a god of these areas. They point to Egyptian lists which suggest to them that there was a place called Ya-h-wa, identified with S-r-r, which they claim is Seir. One scholar has challenged these assumptions, Astour, as noted in Thompson's article on Yahweh.
Thompson:
"Yahweh. The Origin of the Name-
"The date and origin of the name has been debated. Its earliest appearances are in the song of Deborah (Judges 5; which has been dated to the 11th century BC), on the Mesha stele (9th century; ANET, 320), in an ostracon from Kuntillet Ajrud (8th century, Freedman 1987: 246), and in the Adad and Lachish letters (6th century; ANET, 569, 322).
To move outside of the Levant, we find Egyptian name lists which include a Syrian site, Ya-h-wa (No. 97), which is identical to Yahweh. A Ramesses II (1304-1237 BC) list is found in a Nubian temple in Amarah West with six names (Nos. 93-98) following the designation "Bedouin area". Nos. 96-98 have been found at Soleb in Nubia on an Amon temple of Amenhotep III (1417-1379 BC). No. 93, Sa-ra-r, has been identified with Seir (Edom) and related to the biblical references (Deut 33:2) which associate Yahweh with Seir and Paran. This could be taken as evidence the name was known in Edom or Midianite territory ca. 1400 BC (EncRel 7: 483-84).
However, Astour (IDBSup, 971), notes that the writing "S-r-r" is incorrect as opposed to the spelling in other Egyptian inscriptions. Furthermore, three of the sites, including Yi-ha, on Ramesses III's temple in Medinet Habu, are in a Syrian context suggesting that Ya-h-wa/Yi-ha was also in Syria. Thus the name is not associated with Edom or Midianites but does seem to appear as early as 1400 BC in Syria.
From a later time, the 8th century BC, two Aramean princes have names with the element "Yau." This has been taken to mean that some Arameans may have worshipped Yahweh (Rankin 1950:95). This could relate to the earlier connection of the Patriarchs with the Arameans, e.g., Jacob's sojourn with Laban, the eponymous ancestor of the Arameans (Genesis 29-31). The divine name is not found in any cuneiform texts.
The formative -yw in some personal names from Ugarit (ca. 14th century BC) is not a divine element and has no connection with the name Yahweh." (Henry O. Thompson, "Yahweh." Anchor Bible Dictionary. 1992)
The "earliest" clue of possible Yahweh worship in Canaan is of the Amarna Era and the reign of Pharaoh Akhenaten, ca. 1350-1334 BCE. A clay tablet was found in an archive in Egypt, from a "Mayor" of Ta'anach in Canaan, called Ahi-Jami.
Professor Clay on a form of Yahweh appearing a theophoric element in a personal name of the "mayor" of Ta`anach, Canaan during the reign of Pharaoh Akhenaten, ca. 1350-:1334 BCE :

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 80 (82174)
02-02-2004 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Brian
01-28-2004 8:56 AM


HI Brian I found this web page and wanted to know what you thought .
It does touch on the subject the exodus, in a strange sorta way.
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/bible.html
Someone was combining JE with the work that was written as an alternative to it. And this person was not merely combining them side by side, as parallel stories. He or she was cutting and intersecting them intricately. And at the end of this combined, interwoven {p. 218} collection of the laws and stories of J, E, and P, this person set Deuteronomy, the farewell speech of Moses, as a conclusion. Someone was merging the four different, often opposing sources so artfully that it would take millennia to figure it out.
What the heck?
This person thinks it was Ezra.
It goes on to say ,
this would mean that the Priestly source - the most important part of the Torah, including chapter 1 of the Book of Genesis - was written around 458 BC, in Babylon, under the direct influence of the
Zoroastrian religion
What do you think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Brian, posted 01-28-2004 8:56 AM Brian has not replied

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 80 (82177)
02-02-2004 2:50 PM


The redactor
The redactor also used a Priestly text as the structure for the next fifteen chapters of the Bible - the stories of the enslavement of the Israelites and the exodus from Egypt. The text he used was the P version of the plagues that Yahweh inflicted upon the Egyptians. Simply put, he used the language of the P version to give unity to the different sources. In the P version, each of the plagues on the Egyptians was followed by the words:
{quote} But Pharaoh's heart was strengthened, and he did not listen to them, as Yahweh had spoken. {endquote} {Exod 7:13,22; 8:15; 9:12}
The redactor inserted words similar to these following plagues in the JE stories as well. {Exod 8:12b; 9:35; 10:10,27} Then, when he combined the P plague stories and the JE plague stories, the common endings gave the whole combined story a unity. The point is that the redactor was using Pnestly documents as the governing structure of the work.
Third, he added texts of his own, and these new texts were in the typical language and interests of P. I shall refer to some of these texts
{p. 220} below, and I have listed all of them in the Appendix. For now, let it sufffice to say that they are so much like the P texts in their language that for a long time investigators thought that they were part of P itself.

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 80 (82581)
02-03-2004 12:13 PM


Aaaaaa, anyone else want to help me out be my guest.
Thanks
[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 02-03-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 02-10-2004 9:03 PM Stormdancer has replied

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 80 (84684)
02-09-2004 10:24 AM


What the heck did ya all die or something?

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 80 (84723)
02-09-2004 12:24 PM


Is it true that Biblical Hebrew is relatively free of foreign words, fatuously called loan words as if they were borrowed for a while then returned, and that Hebrew does not even have many Egyptian words?
Would you not think they would have being they were said to have spent several hundred years as slaves for the pharaohs, and known history tells us was an Egyptian colony for centuries until about 900 BC.
Aren't there are more foreign words in Hebrew from Babylon ?

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 80 (85008)
02-10-2004 11:13 AM


LOL,
Hellloooooooooooo out there.....
anybody home?
[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 02-10-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Brian, posted 02-10-2004 3:19 PM Stormdancer has replied

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 80 (85129)
02-10-2004 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Brian
02-10-2004 3:19 PM


Awww bless your heart Brian thanks for the responce , Take your time .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Brian, posted 02-10-2004 3:19 PM Brian has not replied

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 80 (85348)
02-11-2004 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by ConsequentAtheist
02-10-2004 9:03 PM


Thanks CA, I sure will read it , I am still reading some of the other books you and Brian suggested, they are great.
Thank You

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 02-10-2004 9:03 PM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
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