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Author | Topic: Christianity is Morally Bankrupt | |||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: If you want to reject Progressive Revelation altigether you have to make quite a lot of the laws understanding and none of them revelation tailored to the people and the times.
quote: That’s pretty unlikely. I don’t think that it is at all plausible that there is a God meme that comes from revelation to everyone.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
PaulK writes: I'm not sure about that. The discussion seemed to be primarily about the nature of God, and how that effects our nature, and that is what I was responding to. I just don't see the concept of right and wrong, good and evil, and knowing the difference, as being a special revelation. If you want to reject Progressive Revelation altigether you have to make quite a lot of the laws understanding and none of them revelation tailored to the people and the times. The concept of special revelation in the OT, or elsewhere, is another question altogether.
PaulK writes: Doesn't everyone have a conscience, whether they pay any attention to it or not? hat’s pretty unlikely. I don’t think that it is at all plausible that there is a God meme that comes from revelation to everyone.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Define "have a conscience".
I would think, no. Not all people have a conscience, based upon how I would define the concept. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: You don’t think that the laws reflect the character of the lawgiver, in any way? Don’t you think the fact that some of them are not at all right? And detailed laws, supposedly coming straight from God would surely be a special revelation
quote: A conscience isn’t a God meme, or even a meme at all.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Thugpreacha writes: As Paul pointed out, that isn't what I had in mind. Of course, a "God" who was learning on the job would gain progressive understanding right along with the humans. But to me that's silly. Some critics would say that every assumption should be challenged.Thuigapreacha writes: Religions are created by people as they try to understand the nature of the intelligence that is overseeing and maybe even responsible for our existence. (Unfortunately far too often that search has been sullied by those with selfish personal agendas.) Others of us hold to the view that belief requires standing on certain precepts and not discarding them easily. Take my Christianity as I understand it.I understand God to be the Creator of all seen and unseen who Fathered an essence that was (and is) 100% human and thus capable of Communion with us. I don't see God as a fellow sojourner learning on the job. I can accept the argument that says that human understanding (and belief) changed through what you call progressive understanding and in my opinion, continues to deepen to this very point in time. If Christian belief asserts that GOD became Man in order to conjugate this Holy Communion, one could hypothetically argue that the "God character" that jar often talks about is an archetype of Jesus living in us and through us. In which case a "learning on the job" character would make sense. Christianity holds that Jesus in some way embodied that nature and then taught, lived it and died for it. God the Father then validated this belief by resurrecting Jesus. Ever since that time Jesus followers have worked at understanding the teachings of Jesus and what God's action of resurrecting Jesus means to our lives. There have been huge disagreements and many times positions taken were self serving and not God serving. Those disagreements continue but IMHO there is a progressive understanding, as observed in the Bible, that continues today.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Theodoric writes: This is from Webster's: Define "have a conscience".quote: Theodoric writes: Other than for those with mental illness I disagree. I would agree that people are able to nearly push it aside so that it appears that they have no conscience whatever. I think that when that happens though it is a gradual process, and that one selfish act leads to the next one, and in turn to the next one again,until that simply becomes a way of life. However, I think that still small voice, by now buried deep inside, is still there and hopefully at some point they respond. I would think, no. Not all people have a conscience, based upon how I would define the concept.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
PaulK writes: You are assuming that they come straight from God, in which case of course they should reflect the character of the law giver, and be a special revelation. However if they come from an individual's understanding of the nature of God then they may or may not be accurate. You don’t think that the laws reflect the character of the lawgiver, in any way? Don’t you think the fact that some of them are not at all right? And detailed laws, supposedly coming straight from God would surely be a special revelation As a Christian I accept that Jesus as embodiment of God's nature is bang on when He says that all commands are based on loving God and neighbour. I accept that loving God means loving the nature of God as seen in Jesus regardless of religious faith. When we look at laws in general, including the OT laws, they should be judged according to that standard.
PaulK writes: Well, a meme is a metaphor. We have a myriad of influences in our lives and I am simply asserting that God is one of them. A conscience isn’t a God meme, or even a meme at all.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: I’m not assuming any such thing. I leave both possibilities open. And that is the point. If the laws are revelation you really do need an element of Progressive Revelation.
quote: But a meme is not simply an influence. A meme is an idea that is passed from one person to another. Not that I see any reason to think that God is an influence (although various ideas of God do qualify as memes). Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
I'd like to say one thing at this point. These are my thoughts from reading a variety of material and is my own way of understanding my Christian faith. I know that a lot of the discussion has revolved around "what is mainstream Christianity". I don't believe that there is such a thing. I doubt that there any two Christians (who have spent time with the Bible and also with a variety of authors), who would agree on everything. Yes, there are churches where they all sing from the same hymn book so to speak, and nothing is ever questioned. I'm not saying that is even a bad thing, however, inevitably then that theology will have a lot of local bias. It is one thing that I like about my own church. We acknowledge our different understandings and talk them out, and if necessary agreeing to disagree.
PaulK writes: I’m not assuming any such thing. I leave both possibilities open. And that is the point. If the laws are revelation you really do need an element of Progressive Revelation. I agree that they are both possibilities. However, it is my belief that the laws that we see in the OT flow from the understanding of the revelation from God that we should reject evil and live by the Golden Rule. I don't deny that I do believe that humans sometimes receive a special revelation to fulfill a specific task, but that is a different issue.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: Other than for those with mental illness I disagree. You conveniently put aside people with mental illnesses as just an aberration that sort of doesn't count. That's wrong. Something like psychopathy is a difference in personality. Someone that otherwise functions normally doesn't have what we call a normal conscience. So he can not hear this 'small voice of god' of yours. So why would your god omit the most important thing in our world - in your opinion - from a minority of people amounting to millions? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: It’s not a singular thing. There are a range of beliefs within it. But I would exclude the absolutist forms of Biblical Inerrancy especially when accompanied with literalism.
quote: You should try reading them. Some of them are quite bizarre.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes:
I think that you are reading something into what I wrote that isn't there. I'm not saying that they don't count. What I am saying is in agreement with what you have just said. They have a mental illness, psychopathy, that prevents them from responding to their conscience. You conveniently put aside people with mental illnesses as just an aberration that sort of doesn't count. That's wrong. Something like psychopathy is a difference in personality. Someone that otherwise functions normally doesn't have what we call a normal conscience. So he can not hear this 'small voice of god' of yours. So why would your god omit the most important thing in our world - in your opinion - from a minority of people amounting to millions? That does not mean they don't count if you are meaning by that they are damned to hell or something like that. One of my problems with much of Christianity, (with Faith it seems to me being a good example), is that it is overly concerned with what happens to us after death. Yes, I believe in a bodily life in a renewed existence in a renewed world, at some unknown point after this life. However, I don't believe that the point of Christianity is supposed to be about working to get on the good side of god by what we do, and even less by believing the right stuff so that we are rewarded in that renewed world. The point is about responding to that conscience or still small voice of God, and being of benefit to others and to creation in general in this life. Ultimately I believe that God is a god of perfect justice and that there will be loving justice for the individual with mental illness as there will be for someone is physically handicapped and isn't able to help out at the soup kitchen. As an aside, look how Jesus dealt with people with mental illness in the Gospels.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
PaulK writes: Can you reword that. I'm not at all clear what you mean by the last sentence.
It’s not a singular thing. There are a range of beliefs within it. But I would exclude the absolutist forms of Biblical Inerrancy especially when accompanied with literalism. PaulK writes: I have read them and I agree. Jesus repudiated some of the ones that were most prominent such as the food laws and laws around the sabbath. ou should try reading them. Some of them are quite bizarre.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: I don’t consider The idea that the Bible is entirely without error to be a part of mainstream Christianity, especially when read literally.
quote: The Sabbath laws were over-strict but the basis concept is fine. The rules surrounding menstruation, on the other hand...
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: I think that you are reading something into what I wrote that isn't there. And I think you're not answering my question, which was why would your god omit the most important thing in our world - in your opinion - from a minority of people amounting to millions? Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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