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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 1 of 297 (693978)
03-20-2013 4:29 PM


I am not trying to offend simply to converse and have some of my own questions answered, i feel i may have hijacked the Morality thread elsewhere and feel this conversation could perhaps do with its own discussion.

So

I propose that Christianity is essentially a morally bankrupt system.

My reasoning is as follows;

1 - Devine atonement for Sin is a moral loop hole.
If a person does wrong the proper path to righting that wrong is to make recompense to the individual who has been wronged and/or society, prayer and other wishful thinking are moot in comparison to this

2 - Heaven and Hell are Unjust.
All human lifes have a very limited scope for both the good and the ill that they can do, no person can ever rack up enough "Karma" either good or bad to justify an eternity of anything. Eternal reward seem dubious and eternal torture down right barbaric

3 - Vicarious Redemption.
The crucifixion of Jesus for the atonement of sins is immoral, no person should ever be able to take moral responsibility for another. Certainly one can help someone else shoulder a burden in many ways but no one can take away someone else's responsibility for their actions. This central tenant strikes at the very idea of personal morality

4 - Freedom of Choice.
To expect everyone to fall in under a system whether they want to or not, to leave them no option to opt out is tyrannical and down right abusive. If you were born into a community or joined one who's rules you did not agree with you would be able to leave (although it could be difficult, think of the Berlin Wall for example) - Christianity offers no such claus

5 - Original Sin and Sins of the Father.
Personal responsibility and morality mean little to nothing in a culture where the vilification for crimes can be passed from one generation to the next.

6 - Thought Crimes.
Due to the mythic properties of the Christian god he is aware of what your thinking and judges you on it. This is a psychologically damaging and again grossly immoral standing as thoughts should never be subject to such critic, indeed in the case of Intrusive Thoughts (a common symptom of many psychological illnesses including stress and depression) particularly harmful and unfair as a person may be suffering from their own thoughts anyway and would require compassion and understanding not feelings of guilt and shame, which they probably are already feeling

There are undoubtedly more examples and these can be hugely expanded upon but I feel this is probably enough of a jumping off point.

Probably a hugely offensive subject but one I very much would like to debate. Thanks
(a lot of this probably holds true for a lot of religions but I'm most familiar with Christianity so I'm working from there)

******************************

Edit/Addition :

For the sake of clarity I'm gonna add the kicker that I am only currently finding issue with Christian doctorians which believe the above - it has been abundantly pointed out to me that not all Christians hold all of these beliefs, if a Christian does hold any or all of these beliefs please join the debate - conversly if a Christian holds none of these beliefs as true please join anyway but be aware I'm not currently taking you to task on your beliefs as I clearly have no idea what you believe. But by all means let's me know what you do believe and I'd be happy to debate that, or better yet get your opinion on the above practices as I'm sure we have some common groud on our disapproval of some issues

Edited by GrimSqueaker, : No reason given.


Reason > Belief

Even if we dont agree find me on Facebook, always happy to have new friends


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Message 2 of 297 (693980)
03-21-2013 9:12 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Christianity is Morally Bankrupt thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 3 of 297 (693982)
03-21-2013 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by GrimSqueaker
03-20-2013 4:29 PM


...but the restraint on sexual promiscuity is still validated???

I propose that Christianity is essentially a morally bankrupt system.

I agree.

Abortions by Religious Affiliation:
Protestants: 37.4%
Catholics: 31.3%
Jews: 1.3 %
Secular: 30.0 %

We will disagree on the issue of whether these christians are failing the dogma which teaches Sexual Prudence, virginity before marriage, sex only in marriage, no divorce, adultery is a crime, Homiosexualk oropaganda is a social evil, publuc near/nakedness an invitation, TV and Holloywood are pornograpers, Welfare System is a Social problem, etc.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-20-2013 4:29 PM GrimSqueaker has responded

Replies to this message:
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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 4 of 297 (693983)
03-21-2013 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 9:23 AM


Re: ...but the restraint on sexual promiscuity is still validated???
I don't so much care about the particularities of interpretation of dogma in this context, the very corner stones are degraded and corrupt.
We can argue whether the bible means Homosexuality is wrong or not but that argument is moot if the biblical god and system of belief are inherently flawed

Edit : upon reflection I should probably address ur issue of promiscuity - so long as people r safe and happy why does it matter? Sex is one of the best things about being human, I've slept with damn near every kind of girl in every kind of way and I can happily say my life is better for it

Edited by GrimSqueaker, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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subbie
Member
Posts: 3358
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 5 of 297 (693985)
03-21-2013 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 9:23 AM


Re: ...but the restraint on sexual promiscuity is still validated???
I'd be curious to see your source for those figures, because they look fishy.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


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jar
Member
Posts: 24761
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 6 of 297 (693992)
03-21-2013 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by GrimSqueaker
03-20-2013 4:29 PM


Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
As a Cradle Creedal Christian raised in a Christian household and educated in Christian schools I'd agree that Christianity such as what you describe would be morally bankrupt and really really silly to boot.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-20-2013 4:29 PM GrimSqueaker has responded

Replies to this message:
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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 7 of 297 (693994)
03-21-2013 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
03-21-2013 10:05 AM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
Can u please educate me where I am wrong, I was raised as a Christian too, and I went to Christian schools until I was 18 - and I can't see where I am
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 375 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(1)
Message 8 of 297 (693995)
03-21-2013 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by GrimSqueaker
03-20-2013 4:29 PM


4 - Freedom of Choice.

It is not just an issue of being compelled to believe. In some versions of Christianity, your salvation is pre-ordained. Essentially, some Christians believe that God created some people for the sole purpose of being eternally punished.

I came to appreciate some of Hitchen's arguments after I had become an atheist and one in particular sticks with me. This is of course once you dispense with the nonsense that is young earth creationism. Mankind in its mostly modern form has been on the earth for perhaps hundreds of thousands of years. In that time we have suffered, died, lived in ignorance and fear of the unknown for the vast majority of this time. All that time a God in heaven looked down upon his creation and did nothing. Then in the only the last few thousand years, when humans had only the most rudimentary and error prone methods of recording information, that THEY developed with massive trial and error over this expanse of time, only then does God finally say, "enough is enough, we need to do something about the salvation of humans."

It makes me think back to some young earth claims that once you include deep time, that it destroys the foundation of their religion. I used to think that they were just being sticklers but now that I think about it, they might be right.


If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

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jar
Member
Posts: 24761
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 9 of 297 (694003)
03-21-2013 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by GrimSqueaker
03-21-2013 10:12 AM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
As I said, it depends on the bylaws of whichever Chapter of Club Christian you were raised in.

In your OP you said:

1 - Devine atonement for Sin is a moral loop hole.
If a person does wrong the proper path to righting that wrong is to make recompense to the individual who has been wronged and/or society, prayer and other wishful thinking are moot in comparison to this

I agree, and that is why every service in the Chapter of Club Christian I belong to has a process to address that. The first step is to become aware of the wrongs you do, to acknowledge those wrongs particularly to yourself, to try to make atonement and to try not to repeat the mistakes.

2 - Heaven and Hell are Unjust.
All human lifes have a very limited scope for both the good and the ill that they can do, no person can ever rack up enough "Karma" either good or bad to justify an eternity of anything. Eternal reward seem dubious and eternal torture down right barbaric

Heaven and hell are neither just nor unjust. Again, what a particular Chapter of Club Christian teaches about heaven and hell may well be. But very little of that is justified Biblically.

3 - Vicarious Redemption.
The crucifixion of Jesus for the atonement of sins is immoral, no person should ever be able to take moral responsibility for another. Certainly one can help someone else shoulder a burden in many ways but no one can take away someone else's responsibility for their actions. This central tenant strikes at the very idea of personal morality

Again, I agree. As a Christian I find that concept belittles and trivializes Jesus as well as turns Christianity into a cheap "what's in it for me; I got my 'get outta hell card' " religion.

4 - Freedom of Choice.
To expect everyone to fall in under a system whether they want to or not, to leave them no option to opt out is tyrannical and down right abusive. If you were born into a community or joined one who's rules you did not agree with you would be able to leave (although it could be difficult, think of the Berlin Wall for example) - Christianity offers no such claus

That says little about Christianity but does make GOD out to be a real asshole. But it's an easy sell and so is marketed by many Chapters of Club Christian. But not ALL Chapters of Club Christian.

5 - Original Sin and Sins of the Father.
Personal responsibility and morality mean little to nothing in a culture where the vilification for crimes can be passed from one generation to the next.

Yup. There is really only very, very weak to non-existent support in the Bible for the concept of Original Sin. Again, that's an easy sell and so many Chapters of Club Christian market that nonsense.

6 - Thought Crimes.
Due to the mythic properties of the Christian god he is aware of what your thinking and judges you on it. This is a psychologically damaging and again grossly immoral standing as thoughts should never be subject to such critic, indeed in the case of Intrusive Thoughts (a common symptom of many psychological illnesses including stress and depression) particularly harmful and unfair as a person may be suffering from their own thoughts anyway and would require compassion and understanding not feelings of guilt and shame, which they probably are already feeling

I think you are confusing Christianity and Santa Claus.

The issue is not that Christianity is morally bankrupt but rather the Christianity that was sold to you is both morally bankrupt and pretty much brain dead.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 10 of 297 (694024)
03-21-2013 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
03-21-2013 10:47 AM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
Thank u for ur detailed reply, I'm clearly unfamiliar
With ur particular branch - so what exactly do u believe?
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 Message 9 by jar, posted 03-21-2013 10:47 AM jar has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 24761
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 11 of 297 (694027)
03-21-2013 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by GrimSqueaker
03-21-2013 12:35 PM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
Well I've made about 20,000+ posts here at EvC, many dealing with just that, trying to explain my beliefs, so it's unlikely I can sum it up in one post even if I forgo spelling, but you can start with Belief Statement - jar and once you work through that thread we can go to the next one.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 12 of 297 (694031)
03-21-2013 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
03-21-2013 12:41 PM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
Damn more reading - ok, gimme a bit and I'll have a read
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 13 of 297 (694035)
03-21-2013 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by GrimSqueaker
03-21-2013 9:27 AM


Re: ...but the restraint on sexual promiscuity is still validated???

Edit : upon reflection I should probably address ur issue of promiscuity - so long as people r safe and happy why does it matter?

Why?

Because it destroys the Family as the unit which builds sound and safe societies.

The whole issue of being "saved" is about this matter.
The surrounding enemies and thieves that look into a successful nation and would invade merely await the decay in the next generation of fatherless, criminal barbarian kids.

BUT,... worse, the Feminization that takes place once women are allowed to use sex as currency creates a weak matriarchy by degrees.
At some point, the matriarchy will fall either from excessive socuialism within, or thru the invasion of harsh patriarchies external to them, like N. Korea, China, Islam of today.


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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 14 of 297 (694036)
03-21-2013 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
03-21-2013 12:41 PM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
I really enjoyed your essay, it was very sweet and clear and honestly ur god doesn't seem all that different from the one my mom taught me about.

I still have a few bones to pick, although not on the subject of morality, but I'd really rather not pick them. U seem far to pleasant to debate, I hate to loos but I'd really rather not win that one


Reason > Belief

Even if we dont agree find me on Facebook, always happy to have new friends


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 03-21-2013 12:41 PM jar has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 24761
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 15 of 297 (694039)
03-21-2013 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by GrimSqueaker
03-21-2013 1:08 PM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
Feel free to pick.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 1:08 PM GrimSqueaker has responded

Replies to this message:
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