Prayer and Medicine

There was a claim made here by Stephen ben Yeshua late in 2003 that prayer had been demonstrated to have positive effects, and he cited a paper purporting to show this (see Message 54). The study turned out to be highly suspect (see Message 91).The results of another study regarding the effects of prayer were described in this week's copy of New Scientist: Interestingly, though the article doesn't mention it, this isn't Mitchell Krucoff's first effort. A BBC article in late 2003 (New scientific study examines the power of prayer) reports an earlier Krucoff study which also found no effect.Scientifically conducted studies investigating the effects of prayer have found results ranging from no effect to small positive effects. For those who do not believe in the power of prayer, why do some studies show a positive effect? For those who do believe, why is it so difficult to find an effect, and when it is found, why is it so small?

The small positive effect could be a sort of placebo effect. If a person knows that people are praying for them and that they honestly believe that it will help them it could have exactly that - a small positive effect. This should not be twisting into saying since their is an effect it proves the existance of god. If i gave someone a sugar pill and told them it was the next 'super treatment' and was guaranteed to save them and they believed me it would likly have the same effect on the people.From the article you cannot tell wether the people knew someone was praying for them or not. The lack of results seems to indicate that people didnt know what group they were in. Interesting to note is that those who recieved the alternate therapy were less likely to die again indicating the power of the mind. I would be interested to know for sure if these people knew they were being prayed for.

A quote from that article:

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However critics of such studies believe that you cannot put God to the test.

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Matthew 4:7
Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'I think through most of the bible God puts us through the tests.I also think that the only way he said you can test him, is by tithing, and he will pour his blessings out on you. Our Pastor does a tithing challenge at our church, he says tithe for 3 months, and if you do not feel as though God is blessing you, then you can have your money back.Also with the placebo effect, how can anything be proven?Hoever, I feel all people would do better if they were loved, not just prayed for. Love conquers all.

I think this is an area where it's difficult to apply scientific principles because there are so many unknowns. Is one persons prayer as effective as anothers? (I am not trying to compare different belief systems here, btw!)Are all people equally receptive? What form would an "answer to prayer" take - would it necessarily lessen symptoms? Couldn't an easy, quick death be a good outcome for a person with a terminal heart condition?
Concerning the placebo effect, but it seems to me that it suggests the patient's own state of mind most influences his/her immune system. I expect being prayed for could make patients feel more positive; but the linked article didn't say whether the patients knew to which group they belonged.
Finally I don't necessarily believe in a God that hides from statistics, but that there is still a lot of research to be done into prayer, faith healing and the placebo effect.

Hi, I think this is a good example of theistic self-delusion and self fulfilling prophecy.If the patient responds positively then God has answered the prayer and He is a wonderful loving Father. If the patient doesn't respond then obviously it is because we shouldn't put God to the test!It must be great to be God, you don't actually have to do anything, all the desparate believers delude themselves on your behalf.Prayer is a double headed coin.Brian.

I don't kow, but the bible gives clear instructions. You expect different results from that?I think it's more complicated than you think. While I do not posess the answer to what happens when you pray, I can tell you what I have been experiencing. My prayer in life, and the answers I get are based soley on my faith in him. When I believe beyond the shadow of a doubt that God will answer my prayer, as long as I am glorifying him, he does. When I doubt, then it's pot luck. It also depends on my character, and my integrety. I think it helps to be righteous as well.We also have to be careful what we pray for, as we can bring it on our selves as well, i.e. asking God for justice.On the other hand, sometimes when you pray the answer is no, so far, when this happens to me personally, I recieve an answer as to why the answer was no. It's all subjective, and I am not testing him, as much as I am just trying to have a relationship with him, and understand his ways. His love is overwhelming, and it is that love, I am trying to grasp. MY own personal shortcomings, can get in the way.With all these variables, and prbably more, when you pray, how can you test it?Jesus taught us how to pray, and it wasn't: "Dear father, cure this heart patient, so that we can prove the scientist wrong, prove to the atheists that you exist, and complete this survey"lolEven if it was proven, it probably wouldn't make a difference anyway, just look at the stories in the OT. Those people had a tower of fire standing next to them, and they were wondering what happened to their God.*edit*
I just wanted reiterate what I said in my first reply. Jesus taught us to love others, as we love ourselves. I think loving those heart patients would have been more effective, and I think science would tend to agree with that, as the human mind/body responds very well to love. Prayer is only one expression of that love, so it can help, but it is not the answer.This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 08-09-2005 06:59 AM

So, the Bible gives clear instructions not to test God, and it also gives clear instructions to pray to God continually. Why is it more complicated, is it because it *has* to be since the easy way shows that prayer is pointless? Here’s the answer, you delude yourself, pretty straightforward isn’t it? I know, it is self fulfilling. This is text book self fulfilling prophecy. So, when you doubt and pot luck kicks in, do you have any positive results? Again, I would argue that this is only because you have persuaded yourself that this is the type of person deserving of God’s help. You do not envisage the possibility that anyone who is less than righteous would have a prayer answered by a perfect being, thus you set up the criteria yourself, and the only way that your mind can deal with it is to try and be righteous yourself. That is the only way that you think God will answer. But, what is the point? If you pray for a loved one to recover from a heart attack they will recover or die whether you pray or not. God has it all marked out, He knows when everyone will die so if your numbers up then prayer is no good. You receive an answer from whom? You talk to God? I know, it is self delusion. When the prayer isn’t answered you make up an excuse for God, such as the answer was no. Why, don’t you have any real friends to play with? You really, really need to get out more. You mean you cannot totally delude yourself? You cannot test it, it is a pointless exercise, unless you like to think that you can change God’s mind about something. Well, Jesus was a great attention seeker, so that is one reason why he told people to pray. He probably also knew that prayer is a type of self hypnosis, or at worst he played a numbers game. Get 5000 people to pray, one of them is bound to get lucky, the other 4999 will simply be awestruck and say that their prayer answer was no, or some will love the attention and say their prayers were answered too! Being God is great, you do not have to do anything! Yep, the Old Testament is a great collection of myths and folk tales, shouldn’t take them so seriously though.Brian.

YES. Your opinion, since you do not fully understand prayer. Um, NO. Unless I am crazy, then YES. Not all the time. It's amazing that my self-fulfilling prophecy can cause other people to do things. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. God doesn't really have a hand in it then, but more it's just life. If I am confused about it, I will seek answers. I do not always get answers I want to hear either. He will answer regardless.
The more integrety, and character I have in his name, the more I am protected by him. The more blessings I recieve. I lived a certain way without him for 38 years of my life. No I include God in my life, and there is a noticable difference, all subjective to me, but everyone I know has noticed also. It has even affected you, since you are talking to me about it. I do not just pray to God, to ask what he can do for me, but what I can do for him.
I am also still in a learning curve about it, I am no expert on prayer, and probably do not even pray enough. Yes!
Want his phone #? Do you even realize how difficult it is to put your life in a position where you can hear from God all the time? By insulting me, you have convinced me there is no God, you are right, and I am wrong, would you be my friend now? Maybe you need to get in more, in more with God. I almost did once, when I tried purple micro dot once, glad it was only once. I don't know. I think God does change his mind about things. It all depends how deeply from our heart we cry for him. Not some silly heart patient test, that's so cheap. What a smart guy for being a carpenter's son, and spending too much time in a desert. How the heck did he firgure that one out? I take the moral translation of them seriously.

I think I understand it a little too well. If you were crazy, would you know that you were crazy?But, people do need to be extremely gullible to take the Bible seriously. Well, once is enough to negate the concept! It actually isn’t, because they may not really be doing what you think they are, that’s the beauty of self fulfilling prophecy, you imagine things are happening when they are not. Dear me, some prayer answers are pot luck, what a waste of time. Depends what you mean by affected. Your adoration of God really makes no dofference ot my life. Sure. The original poster Stephen promised that God had told him that He would visit me soon, I’m still waiting. But, it really wont work because I am not open to suggestion. Difficult and pointless. Why are you wasting your life away on this fantasy? Nah, it is okay, I have too many friends as it is. There is no God, and I am not into self delusion.Cannot be arsed with the rest of the post.Brian.

There's the problem: if all four groups were praying for the same person, three dieties got mildly pissed off at the idolatry, and only the True One (for that patient, of course) was inclined to help out. So no wonder we have a null result.

....you honestly believe Jesus wants you to PAY for your blessings?!Yep, right there in the Gospel, Jesus says "Ye, verily, give money unto me and I shall give you miracles in return!" And Jesus made the lepers and blind and deaf people pay Him for curing their ailements, and He charged Lazarus a TON for "Waking him up"......Oh wait, that wasn't the way it happened.Jesus specifically told His followers to pray for anything they needed, no matter how large or small. He said that God would make sure they were cared for becuae He loves them, not becuase they give Him a bit of gold. Never is it stated that we can "tempt" God by giving Him money in exchange for miracles!Remember Jesus' comment about taxes? "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's." God doesn't care about money.Your church's "tithing challenge" is a typical tactic to get you to PAY MORE, and has nothing to do with the God of the Bible. The "see if you feel more blessed" part is a self-fulfilling prophesy - you'll feel better because you'll think you are doing God's Will, even though it's just the way the church gets money."Do not tempt the Lord your God" means not to say things like "May He strike me down if it is not so!" It has nothing to do with not asking Him to save the life of a friend or relative.And Jesus' teachings have absolutely nothing to do with tithing. He never wanted money. He wants hearts and souls. Are we even reading the same Bible?

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

We are all crazy.
Not gullible, open minded.
I can tell by some of your responses, that you don't get it, even though you were a part of it. I blame the people who taught you. I also do not feel better than you, because I feel I get it and you don't. It's just my opinion. Many people try to learn things in life, and if their teachers are no good, then they have no chance. But that shouldn't stop you from trying to understand it again. I agree with you. I see it all the time in church. People will do that. But I feel I do not, and I could write a book of things that happened to me, that while they all maybe subjective, and indiviually explainable, when you add them all up, it sure seems like there is a God.
Some of these subjective things, are so specific, they border on the objective.
But this is all for me, not you. You have to build up your own self-delusions, mine won't work for you.Ah, delusions without the drugs, a little heaven on earth. You know what, this prayer thing about getting answers and what not. I don't think that is the main purpose of prayer, to ask for things. Do you know how many cool things God has told me, when I wasn't asking for things, but just seeking him?
What if you had a child that all he did was come to you and ask for things? BS. Why are you wasting your life away without him? How many of them will show at your funeral?

Here is some self delusion at work. When I started this thread, I was trying to find this verse, so that you wouldn't reply with what you did. After I wrote here, I went to the bathroom to take a dump, open the bible, and there it was, the verse I was looking for right in my face. I was asking God where that verse was in my head, but I figured he just didn't want me to post it yet. but this is the only way you can test the Lord.
Of course some of you, will think I am totally nuts for saying this, lol.Malachi 3
8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me.
"But you ask, 'How do we rob you?'
"In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a cursethe whole nation of youbecause you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty. 12 "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the LORD Almighty.

That's an excellent quote, riVeRraT, and if I were a biblical literallist I would be forced to conceed.But this is contrary to the message of the New Testament, which seems to tell us to give our posessions to the poor, not to a temple. God wants us to give to each other to ease suffering - after all, if He created everything, He created the gold, too. What use has He for money?Malachi is an annonymous writing, apparently written by a man preaching to a group of Jews who seem to be disenchanted with God - they are losing their faith. Malachi encourages them to return to the old ways and renew their faith. He reminds them to give their tithe...which was actually set down in Leviticus, alongside such commandments and laws as not eating pork, or shellfish, don't touch dead "Creping things." Or these:

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Leviticus 12:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

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Leviticus 15:1-3
And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying, "And if he that hath the issue spit upon him that is clean..."

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15:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When any man hath a running issue out of his flesh, because of his issue he is unclean.

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15:3 And this shall be his uncleanness in his issue: whether his flesh run with his issue, or his flesh be stopped from his issue, it is his uncleanness.

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There's a lot more of the law in Leviticus, of course, but Christians really don't follow any of it. Even modern Jews don't follow the majority, like the sacrifices and the "uncleanliness" of a woman on her period. Hell, there's even a rediculous cure for leprosy in there involving likking a bird, then dipping a live bird in the blood, and sprokling it on the leper.None of this really has anything to do with Christianity or the teachings of Jesus. Everything He said made it clear that God doesn't care one bit about money. All He cares about is helping others however we are able - including giving money to the poor when we have more than enough.Taking all of this together, it seems to me that Malachi was just like modern televangelists, more concerned about raising money for the temple than following the spirit of God. Nowhere do I see Jesus telling His disciples to give all of their money to the temple in exchange for miracles. Not once did Jesus make sure that those He cured had paid their tithes, or even mention it. Jesus' message is to help others, not pay the priests.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

Yes, I agree with you to a point.But one thought, if you give your money to the poor, instead of giving it to the church, and letting them give it to the poor, then who is gloryfied?It also costs money to run a church, and if you are uncomfortable with giving your money to a church, as am I, then get involved with the church finaces, and see exactly where the money goes. If they don't let you get involved, then I would stay away. I think all churches finaces whould be public domain.However, I do not feel like God would punish me, or anyone else if they choose not to give money to a church. I do feel he will have something to say if we don't give some extra away to those who need it.I can for one say that since I started tithing 1.5 years ago, I have never been short money to pay a bill, or has my business suffered one bit. I have even dedicated money to my charity org, to pay the salarys of the employees, and God has provided for me, I feel he told me he would, if I would just be faithful to him. I am in a good finacial situation since I started doing this, and when I started, I was not in a bad situation, but it wasn't the best either.So in short, I feel it works for me.