Women's Reactions to Rape

Charles Knight took care of most of it for me.1. Rape is generally not an expected thing. So, realistically, you would need to be armed at all times.2. For most rapes, this would be completely irrelevant. Lets look at the subset that I presented:Friend: It was his bloody cousin, for crying out loud. Neither were armed. The rape happened anyway. If everyone tended to carry weapons, every rapist would tend to carry weapons. (as an aside, before all this happened, the cousin was put in one of those camps to "reform" gay people after he came out to his parents as a minor; he came back really messed up).Former partner, on the way home: Possibly, although she didn't know she was being attacked until she had a knife to her throat. More specifically, a 19 year old creep (who later was arrested for rape and attempted murder of his ex girlfriend, among other things) that she knew was standing on the side of the road as she passed him. He started to talk to her, she told him to go away, and he pulled a knife out and held it to her throat. Do you think a kid would have the sort of gun skills to pull a wild-west gun-from-the-holster-and-fire trick? Would your proposal be to keep a cocked gun in everyone's hands at all times?Former partner, at the party: Obviously a gun would be irrelevant here. She was kind of dumb in that she accepted a drink from a stranger, but I doubt you'd propose killing all strangers at parties.Friend, driven off the road: Seing as she was badly injured (I don't even know if she was conscious or just found out she was raped later at the hospital - I stopped asking questions once I found out why she was driven off the road), this obviously wouldn't be a helpMy friend who was raped recently: it was date rape; that's all I know. I doubt a gun would have helped.Furthermore, the obsession with so many people for using guns to "defend themselves" boggles my mind. You're far more likely to be killed or lose a family member to your own gun than to a stranger's. Furthermore, once someone brings a gun into play, someone is likely to get shot - be it you or the other person.

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Hey, don't cast all of us Americans into the same category! What's next - pretending that we all like the cowboy with a jesus complex that's running our country? I swear, I was born in the wrong bloody country This message has been edited by Rei, 09-30-2004 07:56 PM

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"Illuminant light,
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I don't get your concept at all. Seriously, to work, you'd not only have to be armed at all times, but you'd have to have your gun out, cocked, and pointed at the other person all the time. That would change societal dynamics, let me tell you. And it would create a new boom in the hospital industry at the same time... Be realistic. What, do you think the average woman is Billy The Kid? Who, when she gets a knife to her throat, can suddenly whip out a gun, cock it, and have it to the person's head faster than they can react? Or do you think women can, while unconscious from a drug, punched out, etc, still manage to sleep-shoot? I really don't get how you're picturing this sort of thing would *help*.Do you think that rapists *aren't* going to attack when a person's guard is down and they aren't expecting it? What are you picturing the typical rape scenario being like - some sort of movie monster that turns to attack from all the way across the room in slow motion?I'd also would like a response to the fact that if you draw a gun on the attacker (not that you'd realistically have any sort of chance to do so), someone is very likely to get seriously injured or killed (either you, them, or both) . If they're not armed themselves (and probably a lot more skilled with their weapons), the first thing they'll do when they want to attack you (or when you try to draw on them) is go for *your* gun. If your main issue is about average physical strength differences, who do you think will end up with the gun?Also, I'd like a response to the fact that you're far, far more likely to be shot yourself or have a family member shot by your gun than an attacker.I mean, seriously - if you're going to propose self-destructive "solutions", why not just propose that all women dress in barbed wire and strap bombs to their chests? THAT'll stop an attacker!

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Why is this listed as a reply to *me*?

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Those are some pretty disturbing numbers.Another situation I find incredibly disturbing is the rate of rape in the military:Error 404 (Not Found)!!130% of military women have been raped or suffered a rape attempt during their service. Unwanted sexual contact, such as fondling, was 54%. 37% of rape victims had been raped more than once; 7% were gang raped.Asked about rape in the military, according to Karpinski, Gen. Sanchez said something to the effect of "The women asked to be here, so let them take what comes with the territory".

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

In addition to the UCLA study, lets look at a situation where we had an undisciplined force who "was the law":News: Breaking stories & updates - The TelegraphExcerpt:
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THE Red Army's orgy of rape in the dying days of Nazi Germany was conducted on a much greater scale than previously suspected, according to a new book by the military historian Anthony Beevor.Beevor, the author of the best-selling Stalingrad, says advancing Soviet troops raped large numbers of Russian and Polish women held in concentration camps, as well as millions of Germans.The extent of the Red Army's indiscipline and depravity emerged as the author studied Soviet archives for his forthcoming book Berlin, to be published in April by Viking.Beevor - who was educated at Sandhurst and served in the 11th Hussars (Prince Albert's Own), an elite cavalry regiment - says details of the Soviet soldiers' behaviour have forced him to revise his view of human nature."Having always in the past slightly pooh-poohed the idea that most men are potential rapists, I had to come to the conclusion that if there is a lack of army discipline, most men with a weapon, dehumanised by living through two or three years of war, do become potential rapists," he told The Bookseller.
----------This message has been edited by Rei, 10-01-2004 01:34 PM

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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And forget the red army, have we already forgotten the face of that girl in Abu Ghraib? Uhhhh... I think it's pretty much beyond question she became a rapist.

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I don't know. Did the prisoners explicitly say "no" and struggle? Otherwise, via our discussion on the other thread, she'd just be a "violator" or an "assaulter".Personally, I'd call her a rapist either way.One of the key points about the Red Army, however, was how widespread the rape was. We don't know yet - and may never know, although I hope not - how widespread the rapes conducted by US soldiers and contractors in Iraq are.

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Ack, what happened to my reply to this post?Never mind... I spent half an hour responding, and I don't feel up to typing it again, unless you really want Basic summarry:
I linked some studies from the New England Journal of Medicine (I"ll dig them back up if you need them ). One showed that you're 43 times more likely to have a family member shot by a gun in your house than an intruder; in their study, also (as an aside), there were 7 cases of guns being used against intruders. In 5 of the 7 cases, the homeowners ended up shot.The other study showed that homes with guns are 3 times more likely to have homicides in them.I then discussed rape rates in states with concealed handgun laws (they tend to be *higher* than normal rates).I put a heavy focus on the fact that you keep addressing unrealistic rape scenarios. Rapists don't just turn and run at you from across the room. If you've got a knife at your throat, and you try to reach into your purse, you're as good as dead. And a knife at your throat is a situation where you've got *more* options than most rapes (be they drugs, punched, pinned, or whatnot).I also pointed out that your case of a gun in the purse for deterrence is silly; a gun in the purse is not "brandishing" it. What you'd need to propose is either wear it on a holster, or announce its presence every 15 minutes. And you're still not going to avoid most types of rapes.In short, it's self destructive, which is the key point you need to address: minimal to nonexistant prevention power, much higher risk of hurting yourself and those you love.I then responded to your strawman (which I was rather ashamed to see you make:

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Which do you think is more likely? Your average woman getting raped, or an experienced gun owner injured by their own weapon?

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(the real situation is "Which do you think is more likely? Your average woman getting raped when the attacker comes from a far enough distance that you have time to get out your gun and fire or stop the person, as opposed to having no chance to even get to the gun, or having it where they struggle with you over the gun, vs. an average woman being injured by her own gun (especially when trying to draw it in a rape situation). In short, what is better? Drastically increasing your chances of being murdered after you're raped and getting yourself and a loved one shot, all for a near nonexistant benefit, or getting raped?Then I went into your bad analogy:

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It's like you're telling me "well, my cousin was killed in a car accident, and my brother was killed in a car accident, and I have this coworker who's paralyzed from the neck down because of a car accident; but I'm not going to wear my seatbelt because it makes it too hard to eat in the car."

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No, it's not like that at all. It'd be like that if guns stopped rapes and had no side effects. They don't, and they do. A more realistic analogy is:"It's like you're telling me "well, my cousin was killed in a car accident, and my brother was killed in a car accident, and I have this coworker who's paralyzed from the neck down because of a car accident; but I'm not going to strap a bomb to the hood of my car in hopes that if I get in an accident, it will blow me back into my seat."Lastly:

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You know what's not going to stop an attacker? Leaving yourself no option but to lay there and pretend its not happening.

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Unfortunately - and I know this often comes as an affront to male pride - there's not always a solution to a problem of violence. A bad solution is often worse than the problem itself - look at Iraq. Bringing a gun into a violent crime means that someone is going to get hurt - and more often than not, it will be you. Even without the crime, you're more likely to lose a loved one or your own life to your gun. It's completely counterproductive.I wish I hadn't lost my post... It was much better worded than this.

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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But that's just speculation. I haven't seen anything, from anybody here, that gives me any kind of indication of what scenarios are realistic, or common, or anything.

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I've given you a list of possibilities. Armed rapes (which are relatively rare; the weapon is usually a knife, since - as I mentioned - rapists don't suddenly announce their intention to rape you from across the room). Brute force (the person pins you down). Drugs. Assault (the victim is physically incapacitated first). Etc.Hmm.. perhaps this will help:Error: SIU CarbondaleIt's a publication from a university's department of public safety on what to do in a rape situation, how to prevent a rape, etc (and a whole lot of other things related to rape). Notice that nowhere does it suggest that you be armed. There's a reason for that. Furthermore, if more potential rapists feel that they have to be armed, that is a very bad thing; those rapes are much more likely to end in homicide; you'll note that they advise very different things for if the assailant is armed.It also cites more detail about the UCLA study, although they don't give a link to it. I should try and track that study down. The numbers cited are:35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it
One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape
84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape
43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse
15% acknowledged they had committed acquaintance rape; 11% acknowledged using physical restraints to force a woman to have sexHmm... here's the full text of one UCLA study, but it's a different (albeit equally disturbing) one:Server Migration NoticeThey read men a story of a man asking a female student if she wants a ride to her dorm, she says no, he thinks she's being "an arrogant bitch", and he drags her into his car and rapes her. 36% of men reported sexual arousal, 37% identified with the rapist, 26% said the rapist was justified, 38% said the victim enjoyed being raped, and 36% of men thought all women should enjoy victimization, 49% said other men would rape if they could get away with it.

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If you think my argument is guns or nothing, then it is you making the strawmen.

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No. You compared a well-trained person to the average unarmed woman, and didn't at all include the fact that bringing a gun into a violent situation drastically increases the odds of you being a victim of further violence, that most types of rape couldn't be prevented by firearms (if someone pins you down, how do you go for your gun? If someone has a knife to your throat, how do you go for your gun (without getting killed)? If someone drugs you, how do you go for your gun? Etc; rape doesn't occur with the perpetrator announcing their intention to rape you).

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So you don't want a gun. That's fine. What are you going to do instead?

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Not make a bad situation worse, perhaps?If you want a list of available options, check out the first ref I gave in this post. One of those ("Intimidation may also work: Lie if you have to; tell him your male roommate is on the way home; tell him you have herpes or VD. Say you have to use the bathroom, and then leave. Say whatever it takes to get out of the situation.") actually worked for a friend of mine. She convinced the guy that the person in the room above hers was home, and that they'd easily hear if she screamed, because they were always complaining about her making too much noise as it was.The *best* thing a woman can do is be familiar with the fact that rape is real, that it is common, and that there are situations that you can be in that are particularly risky, and how to avoid them. Also, should someone attempt to rape you, as listed in the sheet of advice, there are things you can do to try and stop the rape, without putting yourself in a far worse position.

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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Compared to 1990, the rate of rape among women in 1995 was 10% lower (80 per 100,000 women versus 72 per 100,000 women). In 1990 law enforcement agencies recorded about 1 rape for every 1,250 women, and in 1995, about 1 forcible rape for every 1,400 women.

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That's a bit of a relief; I had been under the impression that it was considerably more common than that.

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You do realize that it's a per-year figure, right? Over the course of a lifetime, that means about 1 in 16 chance of a *reported* rape (estimates vary, but most people put the number at around 2 in 3 rapes are not reported). The numbers are also higher for women who go to college, and women who serve in the military.

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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Well, they might very well find his prior conviction for rape

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Unlikely.

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or discover that there is absolutely no connection between the man and the woman

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Rare.

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or discover that the death happened in a place known to be the scene of many rapes.

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Rare.Once again, we see this TV/Movie concept of rape here. Most rapes are not conducted by people with a past criminal record of rape. They're not conducted by strangers. They're conducted in the victim's home. It's not some sort of shadowy assailant lurking in the bushes. (added by edit - I'm not sure what happened, my posts have been behaving strangely.)

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But if a woman is being attacked and thinking "hrm, I'd better not kill this guy, because I'm not sure I can make self-defense stick", then she needs to radically re-evaluate her priorities.

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No - she won't try it because she doesn't want to get killed. It's only after the fact that the further consequences Trixie discussed kick in.

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Many of you here are pontificating about how a woman should react when threatened with rape without even realising that, in a situation like that, women think they are being threatened with murder.

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Why should their reaction be any different to a murderer? Why wouldn't you fight back if someone wanted to kill you? Every woman should assume that their rapist is going to murder them.

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No, they shouldn't assume that. That is the absolute antithesis of recommended advice, especially if the rapist is armed. Again, you're back to your "TV/Movie rapist hiding in the bushes" notion of rape.Most rapes *don't* end up as murder. They end up as rape. However, there is the looming *threat* of murder if one resists. If the rapist is unarmed, resisting physically (*not* with a weapon) is recommended. If the rapist is armed, even that is not recommended.Have you ever been the victim of a violent crime? It's the same sort of thing for all crimes. (Warning: Another Personal Anecdote Time!). I had a friend who was working at a pizza place and some guys came in with guns and robbed it. I asked him what it was like. He told me that he always pictured it would be sort of scary, sort of exciting, or whatnot. But all he could think about, the entire time was, "I'm going to die... I don't want to die...". And you know what? If he resisted, he very well might have.

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But I know how to read. And everything I read tells me that self-defense doesn't make a bad situation worse - quite the opposite. The vast majority of people who defended themselves made their situation better.

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Not Self Defense With A Weapon.This message has been edited by Rei, 10-01-2004 05:43 PM

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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Recommended by who? All the recommendations I've read, from rape survivors and self-defense professionals, stress resistance at every opportunity.

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Find me *One* authoritative source (i.e, not like the NRA or anything) on the subject of rape which recommends *arming yourself* at all times to prevent rape, and I will bake you two dozen cookies and mail them to you

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They stress awareness and self-confidence. They stress giving yourself options through preparation.

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I want to see the recommend carrying a handgun at all times in your purse, and if someone tries to rape you, struggle to reach your purse, get the gun out, fight with them over the gun, and hope you don't end up dead.

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What they never, ever stress is submission. Never ever.

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They *do* recommend not physically resisting if the person is armed, mind you.

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And you know what? If he resisted, he very well might have.

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Fuck, what idiot would resist to protect somebody else's money?

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So, if he owned the pizza store, should he have resisted armed assailants? Should he have pulled a gun out from the counter and started firing? That's a great way to end up dead.

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But isn't your life, health, and well-being worth resisting for? Especially when the odds are, it won't make things worse?

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Getting shot with your own gun is not making things worse??? Assuming that you even have a chance to get to it, which realistically, you don't?

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Who has ever been murdered because they resisted a rape? How would you even know? I think you're overreaching, here.

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You pull a gun during a violent crime, you drastically increase your odds of ending up dead - because the perpetrator now sees it as a threat on *their* life, and they're already in a violent situation.This message has been edited by Rei, 10-01-2004 05:45 PM

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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Find me *One* authoritative source (i.e, not like the NRA or anything) on the subject of rape which recommends *arming yourself* at all times to prevent rape, and I will bake you two dozen cookies and mail them to you

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Strawman, again. We're not talking about weapons, we're talking about self-defense, which includes but is not limited to, weapons.

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Nonono. We're talking about guns. Read your first post. You weren't talking about general self defense - you were talking about guns. I've been arguing against the benefits of guns in a rape situation the whole time - not against self defense. I think it is important that women know what means there are to try and stop a rape; however, keeping yourself armed at all times is not one of them.

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Everything I've read leaves it to your individual discretion at that point, based on how prepared you are, to what degree you can find/improvise a weapon, etc. But over 80 percent of rapes occur with an unarmed assailant.

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Never is submission recommended.

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You need to read more. From the link I gave you earlier: It is not worth getting yourself killed to not get raped.

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For money? No. For his life or safety? Yes. (I shouldn't have said "other people's money" like who owned it matters. It doesn't. But we're not talking about money, are we? We're talking about a woman's life.)

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No. We're talking about a woman getting raped. I'm the one advocating that she not do anything like go for a gun, or physically resisting an *armed* opponent (note: physical resistance is not the only type!) that endangers her life.

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You're making a lot of conclusions that you're not supporting. What is your evidence that realistically, the victim of a rape would not have a chance to stick her hand in her purse at some point during the encounter, and point her purse at her assailant? An action that you could perform in two seconds with one hand?

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Requirements for this scenario:1) One hand free, in reach of the purse.
2) Purse nearby at all times, when home, away, etc (*LAUGH!*)
3) Assailant doesn't move purse
4) Woman not pinned
5) Assailant isn't armed in a way to pose an immediate threat to the woman's life
6) Woman is conscious, and fully uninhibited
7) Assailant doesn't notice the woman reaching for her purse in the middle of his attempt to rape her and find it suspicious.
8) Assailant doesn't see woman grab something in the purse, or doesn't find it suspicious if she does.
9) Woman can work zipper with one hand in the middle of someone trying to rape her.
10) Woman can aim and fire the gun in the middle of a rape attempt, and hit on the first shot.Please, be realistic here. I can't think of a single rape case for which I know the details of in which this would be even close to plausable. And if she *WAS* caught going for her gun, the rapist would see it as an attempt on his life. What do you think happens next, Crashfrog?

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I've never heard a rape survivor regret resistance.

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Almost all resistance to rape is *unarmed resistance* to an *unarmed attacker*, for the precise reason that even if you have a gun, rape almost always comes as a *surprise*. You don't have the warning of a crash from someone breaking into your house or anything (although the statistics about involving guns in situations like that are pretty bad on their own). You have things like a date who you're kissing, you tell him he should go home, and he grabs your arms and holds you down. You have a creep on the street who when talking to you, suddenly pulls a knife and holds it to your throat. You have someone at a party who offers you a glass of water to help you "sober up", and you go in and out of consciousness after drinking it. Etc.

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Support, please.

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Are those two NEJM articles about how you're 43 times more likely to have yourself or a family member shot by your gun (and, that of the 7 breakin-related homicides that occurred in which someone was killed by the homeowner's gun, in 5 of them the victim was a member of the homeowner's family) - and the study that showed a 3fold increase in homicides in gun-owning households - or do you want one for the specific case of drawing a gun in self defense?If so, I'll have to look. From a quick search, there are a lot of statements out there from police chiefs advising people not to resist armed crime, in that most of the deaths that they encounter from such crime were escalated when the victim tried to fight off the attacker (for example, Joseph McNamara, of the San Jose Police Department, testified about this before congress). But I'm having trouble finding studies on the topic, whether positive or negative.This message has been edited by Rei, 10-01-2004 06:33 PM

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."