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Author Topic:   Checking for validity of supposed early christian gay marriage rite
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 1 of 124 (479929)
08-31-2008 4:36 AM


When Same-Sex Marriage Was a Christian Rite
quote:
A Kiev art museum contains a curious icon from St. Catherine's Monastery on Mt. Sinai in Israel. It shows two robed Christian saints. Between them is a traditional Roman ”pronubus’ (a best man), overseeing a wedding. The pronubus is Christ. The married couple are both men.
Is the icon suggesting that a gay "wedding" is being sanctified by Christ himself? The idea seems shocking. But the full answer comes from other early Christian sources about the two men featured in the icon, St. Sergius and St. Bacchus, two Roman soldiers who were Christian martyrs. These two officers in the Roman army incurred the anger of Emperor Maximian when they were exposed as ”secret Christians’ by refusing to enter a pagan temple. Both were sent to Syria circa 303 CE where Bacchus is thought to have died while being flogged. Sergius survived torture but was later beheaded. Legend says that Bacchus appeared to the dying Sergius as an angel, telling him to be brave because they would soon be reunited in heaven.
While the pairing of saints, particularly in the early Christian church, was not unusual, the association of these two men was regarded as particularly intimate. Severus, the Patriarch of Antioch (AD 512 - 518) explained that, "we should not separate in speech they [Sergius and Bacchus] who were joined in life". This is not a case of simple "adelphopoiia." In the definitive 10th century account of their lives, St. Sergius is openly celebrated as the "sweet companion and lover" of St. Bacchus. Sergius and Bacchus's close relationship has led many modern scholars to believe they were lovers. But the most compelling evidence for this view is that the oldest text of their martyrology, written in New Testament Greek describes them as "erastai,” or "lovers". In other words, they were a male homosexual couple. Their orientation and relationship was not only acknowledged, but it was fully accepted and celebrated by the early Christian church, which was far more tolerant than it is today.
Contrary to myth, Christianity's concept of marriage has not been set in stone since the days of Christ, but has constantly evolved as a concept and ritual.
Prof. John Boswell, the late Chairman of Yale University’s history department, discovered that in addition to heterosexual marriage ceremonies in ancient Christian church liturgical documents, there were also ceremonies called the "Office of Same-Sex Union" (10th and 11th century), and the "Order for Uniting Two Men" (11th and 12th century).
These church rites had all the symbols of a heterosexual marriage: the whole community gathered in a church, a blessing of the couple before the altar was conducted with their right hands joined, holy vows were exchanged, a priest officiatied in the taking of the Eucharist and a wedding feast for the guests was celebrated afterwards. These elements all appear in contemporary illustrations of the holy union of the Byzantine Warrior-Emperor, Basil the First (867-886 CE) and his companion John.
Such same gender Christian sanctified unions also took place in Ireland in the late 12thand/ early 13th century, as the chronicler Gerald of Wales (”Geraldus Cambrensis’) recorded.
Same-sex unions in pre-modern Europe list in great detail some same gender ceremonies found in ancient church liturgical documents. One Greek 13th century rite, "Order for Solemn Same-Sex Union", invoked St. Serge and St. Bacchus, and called on God to "vouchsafe unto these, Thy servants [N and N], the grace to love one another and to abide without hate and not be the cause of scandal all the days of their lives, with the help of the Holy Mother of God, and all Thy saints". The ceremony concludes: "And they shall kiss the Holy Gospel and each other, and it shall be concluded".
Another 14th century Serbian Slavonic "Office of the Same Sex Union", uniting two men or two women, had the couple lay their right hands on the Gospel while having a crucifix placed in their left hands. After kissing the Gospel, the couple were then required to kiss each other, after which the priest, having raised up the Eucharist, would give them both communion.
Records of Christian same sex unions have been discovered in such diverse archives as those in the Vatican, in St. Petersburg, in Paris, in Istanbul and in the Sinai, covering a thousand-years from the 8th to the 18th century.
The Dominican missionary and Prior, Jacques Goar (1601-1653), includes such ceremonies in a printed collection of Greek Orthodox prayer books, “Euchologion Sive Rituale Graecorum Complectens Ritus Et Ordines Divinae Liturgiae” (Paris, 1667).
While homosexuality was technically illegal from late Roman times, homophobic writings didn’t appear in Western Europe until the late 14th century. Even then, church-consecrated same sex unions continued to take place.
At St. John Lateran in Rome (traditionally the Pope's parish church) in 1578, as many as thirteen same-gender couples were joined during a high Mass and with the cooperation of the Vatican clergy, "taking communion together, using the same nuptial Scripture, after which they slept and ate together" according to a contemporary report. Another woman to woman union is recorded in Dalmatia in the 18th century.
Prof. Boswell's academic study is so well researched and documented that it poses fundamental questions for both modern church leaders and heterosexual Christians about their own modern attitudes towards homosexuality.
For the Church to ignore the evidence in its own archives would be cowardly and deceptive. The evidence convincingly shows that what the modern church claims has always been its unchanging attitude towards homosexuality is, in fact, nothing of the sort.
It proves that for the last two millennia, in parish churches and cathedrals throughout Christendom, from Ireland to Istanbul and even in the heart of Rome itself, homosexual relationships were accepted as valid expressions of a God-given love and committment to another person, a love that could be celebrated, honored and blessed, through the Eucharist in the name of, and in the presence of, Jesus Christ.

Anyone know if this is true or not?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Dr Jack, posted 09-01-2008 5:19 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 6 by bluegenes, posted 09-01-2008 6:12 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 8 by Dr Jack, posted 09-02-2008 5:08 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 19 by Fosdick, posted 09-07-2008 11:52 AM Taz has replied
 Message 31 by LudoRephaim, posted 09-09-2008 12:29 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 10 of 124 (480737)
09-06-2008 12:09 AM


Thank you to all those who have responded. Life has been more busy than I anticipated. Can't say I have time for anything anymore.
Just a reminder for our resident haters that whether there was such a thing as a christian gay marriage in the distant past or not has absolutely nothing to do with how society should treat some of our members nowadays. In other words, you keep your religion of hate to yourselves and we'll keep our intolerance of your intolerance to ourselves. I started this thread out of pure curiosity. Nothing more.

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by riVeRraT, posted 10-02-2008 11:04 AM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 20 of 124 (480891)
09-07-2008 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Fosdick
09-07-2008 11:52 AM


Hoot writes:
So why does it even matter if same-sex marriage was ever a Christian rite?
It doesn't, as I clearly stated in my previous post in this thread. I was just curious to see if there was ever such a thing as a gay marriage christian rite. Nothing to do with our current debate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Fosdick, posted 09-07-2008 11:52 AM Fosdick has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 33 of 124 (482077)
09-14-2008 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by LudoRephaim
09-09-2008 12:29 PM


Re: Tazzzy
LudoRephaim writes:
Considering the replies and posts on this thread, combined with the teachings of the Bible and orthodox Christianity, i remain highly skeptical of the above claims. Just look at these tidbits from the early Church Fathers;
Well, I'm skeptical of the christian homo-marriage rite claims, too. IT's just that I have quite a few gay friends who are also christians. They spend a lot of time trying to come up with "evidence" and excuses to reconcile their homosexuality with their faith. I'm neither gay nor christian and I feel for them. Seems to me like a waste of time trying to convince haters and bigots like nem_jug and his religion of hate to accept homosexuality with open arms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by LudoRephaim, posted 09-09-2008 12:29 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by LudoRephaim, posted 09-16-2008 1:02 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 40 of 124 (483112)
09-20-2008 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by LudoRephaim
09-16-2008 1:02 PM


Re: Taz and the Birdcage
LudoRephaim writes:
I've haven't read all of Nemmy's posts but I doubt he hates them to.
Oh god, please don't get him to start rambling again on how allowing gay people to have rights will slipery slope into people marrying dogs and cats.
You wouldn't say that Islam and Judaism are religions of hate?
Actually, I do say that as well. Let's face it. You don't want to admit it's "hate" because we as a society have demonized the word "hate" enough that nobody wants to associate with it. Current members of the KKK as well as neo-nazis claim that they don't "hate" people of other races just like how you people claim that you don't "hate" gay people. But in my book trying to limit the rights of a whole specific group of people IS "hate".
but to say that all Christians hate gays...
Never said all christians hate gays. I said christianity is a religion of hate. Can you actually think of a moment in history when christianity doesn't demonize a group of people? Used to be Jews, black slaves, American Indians, etc. As a matter of fact, I'm surprised christianity hasn't ran out of people to demonize yet.
Its not that Christians hate homosexuals, its just that (at least the more Bible-based, lest "progressive" Christians), they are forbidden by God to accept any sin.
Yeah, just like how god put the different races on different continents so therefore he must not have wanted the races to intermarry?
I like your new avatar, but i miss the old one.
What new avatar? What old avatar? Been using this same one since forever. Also been busy with new career so I haven't been on much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by LudoRephaim, posted 09-16-2008 1:02 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Rrhain, posted 09-20-2008 3:07 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 42 of 124 (483228)
09-20-2008 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Rrhain
09-20-2008 3:07 AM


Re: Taz and the Birdcage
Yeah, and that was like a year ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Rrhain, posted 09-20-2008 3:07 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 56 of 124 (484300)
09-27-2008 5:32 PM


What the hell is wrong with this page?

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by LudoRephaim, posted 09-28-2008 2:01 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 97 of 124 (485730)
10-11-2008 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by LudoRephaim
10-10-2008 7:41 PM


Re: Turkey Jews
LudoRephaim writes:
Just as you are a salad-bar Jew?
Pot callin' the kettle black.
As if you ever did, or even know what it means...
etc....
Just curious. Do you try to engage in serious conversation or you just like to make smart-ass comments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by LudoRephaim, posted 10-10-2008 7:41 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 118 of 124 (486330)
10-18-2008 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by ICANT
10-18-2008 10:10 AM


Re: Re-Reform
Normally, I'd stay out of this, but the following comment caught my attention.
ICANT writes:
But when you or anyone else stand at the judgment you will not be judged accordingly to what you think or believe the Word of God says, nor what you have been taught it says. You will be judged according to thus saith the Lord God.
Do you honestly think your god is as petty as you make it out to be?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ICANT, posted 10-18-2008 10:10 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 10-18-2008 4:26 PM Taz has not replied

  
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