what is feminism?

What would you call attributing modern behavioral traits of chimps, bonobos and humans to our common ancestor?

No, but until you've established that patriarchy in humans is actually our evolutionary destiny, you're jumping the gun when you wonder if it's A Bad Thing to eliminate it.I'm just saying - the argument that patriarchy is not genetic and has nothing to do with evolution essentially obviates the rest of your position, so you should really raise some kind of rebuttal to it, and evidence would be that rebuttal. Fair enough. Doctors/dentists, etc. I think that, largely, feminists have considered the likely consequences of the changes they have in mind; and honestly it's the patriarchy's defenders who have chosen to disregard the consequences of patriarchy - to women. Has it? Is there a single species you can point to that, without patriarchy, we know would be extinct? No, you're not. If you're defending patriarchy, then you're pretty clearly rejecting my definition - you're no longer supportive of equality between the sexes.You can't support patriarchy and equality simultaneously. If you're supporting patriarchy, you can't be a feminist - by my definition or any other. Are you looking? I'm sure that if you did a google search, you could find websites where men railed against feminism, supported the "differences" between the sexes that (not so coincidentally) always put men in the leadership or advantaged position, and agreed to work against feminist successes like abortion rights, equal pay, maternity leave, and child support.Hell, google search? Just tune into Fox Noise. Pay attention in your church. Watch the current crop of GOP candidates. And try to remember that the defenders of patriarchy rarely use that word, because they'd rather have it be a secret.

I'll allow time to pass in order to let nature take its course. Three days should suffice.

i'm not on my period you insensitive shithead. i'm on depo. i don't have those. in fact, i'm going to be on depo for a long time not having periods because i'm demonstrating classic symptoms of endometriosis and the only treatment is suppression. of all the fucking threads to suggest that i'm not rational because of something my body is doing. i'm being pissy because you're being an idiot.

...and, more bating. You did pick the perfect thread to bust out the tired, insulting "histrionic woman" well-poisoning dismissive, incidentally. Not like feminists haven't heard that one before.Truly, NJ, you're a master baiter. Why, you're master(fully) baiting all over the place!

So if a woman doesn't agree with the feminist movement, she's a brainwashed Christian?P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C

Hook: Line: Sinker:

quote:

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Another study quizzed graduating master's degree students who had received job offers about whether they had simply accepted the offered starting salary or had tried to negotiate for more. Four times as many men -- 51 percent of the men vs. 12.5 percent of the women -- said they had pushed for a better deal.
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Women working full time earn about 77 percent of the salaries of men working full time, Babcock said.
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Babcock then ran the experiment a different way. She told a new set of 153 volunteers that they would be paid $3 to $10 but explicitly added that the sum was negotiable. Many more now asked for more money, but the gender gap remained substantial: 58 percent of the women, but 83 percent of the men, asked for more.
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About 10 years ago, a group of graduate students lodged a complaint with Linda C. Babcock, a professor of economics at Carnegie Mellon University : All their male counterparts in the university's PhD program were teaching courses on their own, whereas the women were working only as teaching assistants.

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That mattered, because doctoral students who teach their own classes get more experience and look better prepared when it comes time to go on the job market.

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When Babcock took the complaint to her boss, she learned there was a very simple explanation: "The dean said each of the guys had come to him and said, 'I want to teach a course,' and none of the women had done that," she said. "The female students had expected someone to send around an e-mail saying, 'Who wants to teach?'

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Is it really that "men have had a favorable handicap", or is it that feminists have been whining to society for better pay, when they could easily get it by whining to their bosses?Companies always try to pay their employees as little as possible, and as Crash said, "[p]eople usually don't get raises unless they ask for them." Want better pay? Don't bitch at society. Don't bitch at men. Go bitch at your feminist buddies who have their heads so far up their asses that they can't even figure out who it is that's calling the shots. Tell women to stop picketing in the streets, and go up to their bosses and actually try ASKING for the damn raise, instead of just expecting the fucking thing to fall into their laps.It's like seeing a closed door, and running around everywhere looking for the key, only to find out that it was never actually locked. You really never know what great things lie in store for those who can be bothered enough to seek them out."Honey, Baby mine..."
Jon
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Message 74
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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _En el mundo hay multitud de idiomas, y cada uno tiene su propio significado. - I Corintios 14:10
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _A devout people with its back to the wall can be pushed deeper and deeper into hardening religious nativism, in the end even preferring national suicide to religious compromise. - Colin Wells Sailing from Byzantium

When it happens in other species, we call that evolution. Why is it different for humans?

Its a possibility. But if we look back through the genetic line, won
t we find more patriarchal species than matriarchal ones?

From Message 263I ain't got it.I was just thinking out loud. If you don't believe me or disagree, we can discuss it, but its really not important enough to me for me to research for evidence for it.Just look around. There's a bunch of patriarchal species and we are one of them. But it didn't evolve? To me, it looks like it did. But I could be wrong, I have no problem with that. Thanks for the link, I'll read it when I have time.From Message 267Is there no evidence for the hierarchy of other related species? If we found that most of them were patriarchal, then the bonobos would be the exception not the rule. I honestly don't really know. Gorillas, Chimps and Humans are patriarchal. Bonobos are matriarchal. What about the others? I told you that I didn't have time at that time, and I really don't have a lot of time right now. I'm not going to spend time looking up evidence for you for an assertion that you haven't even said that you disagree with.From 271: I dunno, lemme guess.... Evo-Psych?

Jumping the gun by wondering? Jeez. Give me a break. If it was just in our species, then I could see how it is not genetic. But it is in a lot of various species. That makes it seem genetic to me. How would we know that?I guess it is a leap to say that species have survived and are patriarchal so there must be a connection. It could be just a correlation, I guess. But I think that patriarchy could provide some obvious benefits that could easily be selected for, if there's some genetic component. I don't have proof for the genetic component, but it seems to add up.Its not like this is some published theory I'm proposing, its just a discussion on the internets. Damn, tough crowd.Shit, I gotta go. I'll be back later, hopefully.ABE: Hrm. I think that the sexes should be treated equally and I have been defending patriarchy. I'm not supporting the continuation of patriarchy. I'm defending (or trying at least) it against the claim that men have collectively and consciously decided that we're patriarchal.I see it as more of a natural outcome rather than an unnatural, or conscious, choice. I'm not saying that there aren't any men supporting patriarchy.Edited by Catholic Scientist, : finish the reply

there's no telling. we know almost nothing about the culture of our ancestors, and to assume a hierarchical system based on zero evidence is really irresponsible.if we look at closely related animals, of chimps, one species is matriarchal and one is patriarchal. orangutans are next out and they're solitary and don't have a community hierarchy of any sort. gorillas are patriarchal. and that's the great apes. any further off and we're beyond speculation. ok, so we have two examples of patriarchy, one of matriarchy, and one of solitude. that's hardly a good sample to assume things from and frankly, it's about even.

i think you're referring to "natural selection". and it's different with humans because of our amazing sentience and specific intent. if we intend to annihilate other people, that's hardly being selected out by natural means. and i'm amazed that anyone would suggest such a thing.

If it is the topic we are discussing, and it is helpful for me to learn, then yes.

You see, you become the instigator when you make huge leaps like that.My reference to that was about the papers having nothing to do with what we were talking about.Thanks for putting words in my mouth. But instead of making me look bad, you only expose yourself.