La Cage Aux Foley

Because there are more important issues than an old man's fantasies?

I absolutely agree with your points.I believe one of the biggest problems the US has is an obsession with sex, such that it eclipses real issues. I guess its more fun to talk about, and one doesn't need any logic to support it.

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holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

I don't see this as true. I regularly visit a number of news sites that are generally aligned with dems/liberals. They are going nuts on this.You can also see this within liberal media outlets (such as the Daily Show as berb posted in the other thread).What appears to be happening is that Reps are reacting for damage control and/or to pull themselves out of the frying pan. Dems are charging in to attach as many people to Foley in order to sink them all. Edited by holmes, : new to news

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holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

I think it is largely because the political pendulum has turned, and the GOP is being hoisted by its own petard on many fronts.The party of smaller government has morphed into Big Brother.The party of moral smugness appears to have winked at early indications of problems involving Foley and Congressional pages.The party of Homeland Security seems to have ignored warnings about Al Qaeda's plans to attack the U.S., and then lied about it by both omission and commission.The list goes on. Thematically, a party that has cynically and hypocritically used divisive issues of fear and mistrust to gain and hold power at last looks to be nekkid as a jay bird in a cold wind. Why shouldn't their opponents enjoy and encourage the view?A principled Democrat who refused to profit politically from these events could be called many things, most prominent among them, "Another November Loser." Reformation of our political culture is much to be desired, but it won't happen with the GOP in control of all three branches of government.Interestingly, the strongest attacks on Foley and the House leadership are coming from the same moralistic right wing that has thumped the left with the same club for years. Indeed, the Wall St. Journal has suggested that political correctness re homosexuality tied the hands of House leaders; other Republicans have questioned the timing of the story, suggesting Democrats left kids at risk so they could break the story on the last day of official business in Congress. I'm curious to see how that plays in Peoria.It is political infighting, no holds barred: the GOP rose by it and may well fall by it. Perhaps a Democratic Party chastened by a few years in the wilderness will do a better job in office this time of defining the important issues you name and offering effective leadership.Welcome to America.

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God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, ”Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It’s yours.’
--Ann Coulter, Fox-TV: Hannity & Colmes, 20 Jun 01 Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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It seems to me that gatsby, and I know I, feel the "view" should be of the more important points on your list. The question is why focus on something as stupid as this? Isn't that what reps consider reps that don't go after dems in the same manner? I get your point but its a vicious cycle. In the end both sides must continue in this manner.The electorate can stop it by demanding something more important to focus on. I honestly cannot put any hope in a candidates willing to profit specifically on this issue, that they will do any better in office. They will go in with their hands tied to the same rudder of meaningless power politics.I mean really, what would this mean for any of them dealing with sexual issues as a representative? It sets it as a higher issue, which other things must be set aside for. And always in a negative hyperbolic fashion.Not to mention concerns for personal privacy.

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holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Hi, Holmes. I understand your past year has been as catastrophically eventful as mine. We'll have to compare notes sometime. I understand your point as well and largely agree. But if we wait for the best to occur before we stop the bad, the worst will continue. I agree, though they show no signs of ever doing so. I don't want to wait for the reformation of human nature before pulling the GOP away from the wheel.The key observation I want the electorate to make here is not about adolescent sexuality and middle-age fantasies (I doubt the young fellow was actually traumatized at all), but rather that the Republicans are not who they claim to be, and that they will in fact betray their stated principles in pursuit of power without a moment's hesitation. The story has legs beyond sexual sensationalism primarily because of the suggestions of a cover-up. To condemn that is not to engage in equivalent conduct.Like you, for example, I support a robust military: unilateral disarmament in this world is a fool's errand; yet I also loathe violence. All in all, it is difficult to navigate a fully rounded set of humane political principles with pristine hands.The Republicans have attempted to portray Democrats as depraved moral relativists who would not only condone but enjoy and encourage all bad behaviors. I don't see how the Democrats can reveal that essential hypocrisy except by spotlighting it when the mask slips, whatever the issue or occasion. I do think this story has synergistic impact because of revelations about GOP hypocrisy and failure in the unrelated areas I mentioned.Hopefully, a reversal of political fortune on those terms will help the electorate raise the bar for future political leadership. Voices of reason on sexual issues are few and far between in the political world--though there are more outside the GOP than inside it--but an environment without GOP domination of all three branches of government can only increase the possibilities.

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God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, ”Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It’s yours.’
--Ann Coulter, Fox-TV: Hannity & Colmes, 20 Jun 01 Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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How so? I think hypocrisy is a disqualifying trait in a Congressman. Hence, it's completely relevant.You asked, as I recall:

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Can someone please explain to me why this is such a big issue?

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What you didn't ask was:

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Can someone provide a logical syllogism proving how saying one thing and doing the opposite contravenes some agreed-upon natural law?

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Pardon me, friend, for answering the question you actually asked. It's a big deal because people don't appreciate hypocrisy in their leaders. It's the one personal trait everybody, regardless of their opinion on morality, can agree is generally negative. Well, no, your question was, again:

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Can someone please explain to me why this is such a big issue?

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But the answer is, yes, he has done something illegal. It's a federal felony to proposition minors for sex via the internet, even if they're of consenting age where you live, or where they live. Foley himself was responsible for passing that law so he certainly should have known better. Anybody who excercises that kind of faulty judgement is unqualified to make Congressional-level decisions. It's more of a practical objection. Hypocrites aren't, as a rule, good leaders. People who delay floor votes to have cybersex with teens waste the government's time, waste my time, and clearly lackt he judgement to be effective leaders of the country. Oh, really? Do you think that they probably felt they could have offended a nationally-recognized Congressman in that manner without some form of retribution?Are you just naive, or what? I don't understand the kind of Doublespeak you're using in your mind that allows you to seperate his behavior from his responsibilities and power. This is a Congressman we're talking about. He chose to be one. That came with responsibilities that he abrogated.

1) A Congressman broke federal law and used his position to proposition minors for sex, and pressure them into sexual activity. (Cyber sex is a sexual activity.)2) The House leadership, informed of the problem, buried the issue rather than investigating a crime, like they're supposed to.Yea, I guess you're right. I can't honestly see the big deal when Congressmen commit sex crimes against minors, and their House leadership offers their tacit approval! Hey, what's the big deal? Call me when they're murdering people.

Er...how is ignoring the murder of a young gay man and the fundamentalist crazies protesting at his funeral in favor of promoting the right wing frenzy over Clinton's blowjob equated with the "liberal media"??I also fail to see how the "liberal media" is responsible for the current Foley spectacle superceding the suspension of habeas corpus when they are both supposedly "liberal" hot topics.If anything, I would think that the "conservative media" and the powers that be are using this opportunity to squelch discussion about the habeas corpus/torture/wiretap issues and to be able to point to how much the "liberals" are blowing the Foley issue out of proportion.Media conspiracy theories aside , sex sells. News organizations know this and will discuss this issue ad nauseum in order to get more readers/viewers to buy their product.

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The reason I am so bothered by the liberals going all gung ho about this is because WE should be talking about THE REAL IMPORTANT ISSUES, like congress giving the president to suspend habeas corpus for non-citizens.

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Sure, but the conservatives in this country haven't exactly been jumping up and down about the loss of habeas corpus, have they?I've only ever heard of liberals talking about that.It seems that the most important thing on conservatives' minds are bills about gay marriage, immigration and flag burning.

I suppose if it isn't already a crime for a member of Congress to hit on one of the pages it should be. But I still say that you and many of the republicans are going overboard with this. We have a few older teens (and I think it's safe to infer that those in the page program are mature beyond their years) who were hit on by a Congressman. That Congressman clearly abused his power and may have committed some other crimes, but I can't for one minute believe that any of those 16-year-old boys have been permanently scarred by the experience.Meanwhile, we have a grossly and perhaps criminally mismanaged war going on where scores of mothers, fathers, sons and daughters are being killed or maimed every day. The negligence and arrogance of this administration is literally killing people, yet in this fucked up country the only thing that can take power away from these sociopaths is a sex scandal in which - so far as we know - no one was even so much as touched inappropriately.For God's sake, what kind of people are we?

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W.W.E.D.?

Oh? You talked to them? Assessed their mental status?Remember that this was a guy who the pages were warning each other to stay away from, so my guess is that everything wasn't exactly fun and games. A people who can see both sides of every issue except for the sexual exploitation of the underaged by the powerful.Iraq is complicated. Sexual misconduct is simple.

Sen. Lindsey Graham:

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What would happen if a CIA agent were captured in Iran trying to suppress their nuclear program, and the Iranian government put this person on trial as a war criminal, and the Iranian prosecutor had a file marked "secret," gave it to their judge and their jury and said convict this man, and they never shared the evidence with the American agent? We would go nuts. We would say that secret trial violates the Geneva Convention standards for trying people. What if the Iranians gave him a lawyer and allowed the lawyer to look at the evidence the jury had but would not allow the lawyer to talk to the agent about the case against them? What would we do if the Iranians sentenced an American to death based on evidence the American never saw? We would go crazy.

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Pedophiles and terrorists -- everybody we try deserves to know what they're accused of so they can defend themselves. And if we do it differently now -- different than we've done in 200 years -- it will come back to haunt us, because other people will start doing this. And imagine an American in a foreign land going to the death chamber never seeing the evidence against them. It would be an outrage against our people, and we can't legitimize that.

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Strong words - though unfortunately I don't the majority opinion.Hang on a minute That's the problem with these political topics, they go off topic so easily because there are so many other topical issues that get commented on. I agree that there are more important issues that need discussion and attention. Unfortunately - it's been said that politics is showbusiness for ugly people...and these kind of stories are no exception.No better a villain than a hypocritical villain. The story is far more entertaining than some old latin phrase related to some old Swiss city.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.Edited by Modulous, : Mad formatting insanity.

I wish you success whatever the issue is. Heheheh... I admit that I am crossing my fingers hoping that almost anything will happen to make reps lose control of the legislature. And if this does so then so be it.However I would much prefer them to fall for so many other reasons. Heck, the way you pitched the reason for Foley and others to fall in this mess is much higher ground then what I am actually hearing out there by dems. That all makes sense. So why then are dems and other liberals focusing almost solely on how repulsive foley is and what he did, trying to demonize everyone with hyperbole about the actions themselves?You can see that in this very thread. His actions have been equated to actual rape, and the coverup being reps not doing enough to "protect children".You have shown the higher road, but the low road is being taken. I can be thankful that reps might get ousted and so return balance to gov't, but I have little hope that REASON will be restored to gov't or the people. Here is a link to a good political cartoon page. The last cartoon sort of illustrates the feeling I'm getting about this. Ironically, the GOP were shielding a gay member from attack. And intriguingly much of his stance was not Bush-republican. The guy did help gay rights and abortion rights.While conservative GOP voters might take this opportunity to ditch a "liberal" rep, my guess is they are not going to look to the dems for a replacement.

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holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Why? Other than people are making an issue out of it, why is it actually an issue? Especially one requiring legal action?Earlier in the thread I pointed out that in 1983 a member of congress was censured for actual sex with a page, who was legally a minor in his state. He ignored the censure and went on to be re-elected 5 more times by his constituency. He and the page went to the media, since they were the pnes hyping it and said it was none of their business.I agree that a work environment should be free of harassment of any kind. Hitting on people is a human foible, and of little consequence. Repeated and pressured hitting on someone is something that ought to be dealt with. But I don't see where simply making passes at someone, especially if it is consensual activity is something meriting legal action.I think the democratic legislator took a bold stand in 1983 and he was evidently rewarded for it by the people he represents. That sort of underlines the idea that we shouldn't be forcing people into legal boxes. If his constituency doesn't care, that is enough. He is an elected official, they can take him out of his position.BTW- Check out the last cartoon in the link I gave Omni.

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holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)