Deism in the Dock

Anglagard:That is one way... to look at it... But it's still one way.Is it the truth?
If it is, then Jesus was wrong about being the narrow gate and the only path.Of course you'll likely say that He was misquoted or wrongly interpreted. But that really only goes to show that the truth is one way and not both.Anglagard: We find ourselves in agreement on another point... but... don't forget that it is precisely people's customs and birthplace that they most often refuse to give up, and thereby reject God (be it money, sexuality, power, etc...)God will very actively work in our lives if we want Him to... but we don't.I really want to drive this point home, so how shall I put it?When we speak of the anthropomorphic santa claus, what we really mean is the god that so many already worship. A god who will overlook all sin and selfish ambition, and simply welcome with open arms, all whom he has created without cost.We won't believe in Him, unless he is like us, and willing to compromise convictions, law and order, for the sake of peace.But can we accept hell, for the sake of heaven?
Whould it remain heaven at that point?I think that to really understand God, we must realize that 'heaven' is His domain, in eternity, not ours. We rule this world, in time, posessed by ourselves; He rules His, posessed by Himself. If we want to live in His reality, then we must be posessed by Him also. We must be caught up into the eternal life, and forsake the temporal.He does not condemn us... we condemn ourselves by rejecting Him.If we reject Him, in exchange for our own culture and metaphysical concepts created by our customs, then it is we who create God in our own image and worship this 'image of the beast' known counter-intuitively as the 'anthropomorphic God'.This constant transposing of reality is bad theology, and is what happens when we try to think in our terms instead of His.The God that I worship is not like me at all. And you should thank Him for that... He is very much anti-me (or, perhaps it is more accurate to say that apart from Him, I am, anti-God [christ]), in the sense that He demands that I give up my own culture and customs and be molded and trained by Him if I am to live in His reality.Can I demand that God change His reality to suit my desires and limited understanding? Of course I can! But because He is God, He will not do so. He'll give me my way if I insist. And that is hell. But He will not allow me to blackmail Him into forcing my reality onto Him. It works both ways. So there is a proper role for both, but they cannot be reconciled; hence heaven and hell. They are at odds. If God were insecure like us, He would not allow such a place. And then you and I would not be free creatures, but slaves to His will. We would go to heaven whther we liked it or not. Makes me wonder if, at that rate, we would even truely be 'alive'. We would be more like automatons than humans.Many do not like the concept of hell, and neither do I. But what are we asking God to do?C.S. Lewis addressed this question better than anyone I know of: ( C.S.Lewis / 'The Problem of Pain' / Chapter 8, Hell, pg. 130.)God does not impose Himself on me, and He will not allow me to impose myself on Him (that's the real point I wanted to make with this reply). Like a lover chasing his mate, He knocks on the door of our hearts and minds, and asks us to trust Him and let Him explain Himself. But it is the thought of Him that repels us. We constantly tend toward anarchic freedom and temporal pleasures; not real freedom, commitment, and relationship.We don't disagree on everything Anglagard, but I think you disregard some important implications that follow logically from your premises. The exclusivity of truth and it's emphatic 'one way' nature, is certainly tops on the list, and the easiest problem to see within a pantheistic worldview. Consider it...Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Archer:It seems that you are the one flinging arrows of condemnation Archer...It's not 'marry me or I'll shoot'... it's, 'your dying. I can help you; your sinking, and I can walk on water; come and follow me'.The 'everlasting torture' is a state of being that we are already in. And that is something we must understand if we want the Bible to make sense; we are already condemned. God simply wants to save us from our current condition. we are the one's who refuse. And such refusal goes to show, more so than our sins, how depraved we actually are.Archer:In your opinion, what would God have to do to prove His love to you?Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Archer:That's quite a sarcastic conclusion you've leveled against Crashfrog... and you seem rather certain about its accuracy Archer. At least Crash believes in something.Archer, why is it that your arrows so often end up being boomerangs?This whole type of contradiction, reminds me of the very funny comment by comedian Steven Wright who said, 'a conclusion is what happens when you stop thinking'. It also reminds me of a man who actually told me that he believes in 'nothing'.I asked him if he really believes that?The same man also said that, 'statements of fact are ninety percent rubbish'. AS for Deism, it's a nice way (like many others) to do away with personal accountability, responsibility, and morality.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Crashfrog:When your right... your right!Couldn't help myself. Actually it's refreshing to see a semblance of humility, in this EVC tower of pride...

Archer: (bold emphasis added by Rob)Archer, if a religion is not exclusive, then you must take the word 'not' out. If a religion is not exclusive, then it is all things. but if that is true, then why are you telling us that it [b]is[/]b this... and not that?Boomerang...Archer, if a religion is Both this, and that, then why can't it be exclusive?By saying what is not in the absolute sense, you are being exclusive, and speaking in the very black and white terms you seek to refute.Besides Christ, I have Aristotle on my side... (Aristotle Metaphysics 1011b25)

Ringo:So, you're saying that I should simply follow the logical outworkings of a deistic worldview in spite of my own personal survival instincts, for the benefit of all; or, put another way, blindly lay down my own personal interests (such as my sexual preferences)for the sake the greater human future which is destined to be extinguished by the 2nd law of thermodynamics anyway?Besides mentioning that you are free to lead by example, I have to ask... 'why?' In saying what you did, you must be assuming some purpose or meaning to 'being' such as, 'it's just the right thing to do' which is necessarily invoking some metaphysical concept of meaning and purpose.Your appeal to conscious (our internal and intuitive knowledge) is no different than God's...Furthermore, since when does Christianity profess blind obedience without understanding? Your conflating the Christian and Jewish God with the concept of Allah.The Biblical God is not some 'Totally Transcendant Will' to be followed, but rather one that is understood with training, wisdom, experience, and personal communion. God is relational... not absent, deistic, or wholly outside of our experience.Why do you think God had the Israelites roaming in the desert for forty years when they could have went straight into the promised land in a matter of weeks? Just to torture and humiliate them for His own sick pleasure? No wonder you dislike Him, you utterly misuderstand Him.No... it was to show them themselves and how fickle their faith and how short-sided their vision was. It was to test them, and push them like a coach pushes a team to be better than it starts out to be. Did you never have someone to teach you these things... all of us didn't in this day and age (myself included).God opens the eyes of the blind Ringo, He doesn't shut eyes that are already closed.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Ringo:First of all... every conversion is a 'death bed' conversion because all of us are dying. Some figure that out sooner than others. A genuine repentance is all that is required. If it is only a swooned conversion, then the outcome will not be forgiveness. there is no covering of bases, but only genuine repentance or not.Secondly, if you insist on paying for your own sins, you are free to do so. But if somebody doesn't pay, then God is not absolutely just.But He is... frighteningly so...If you cannot see the desperate measures that He went through to show us how horribly sinful sin is, and how serious He is about His unwillingness to tolerate it, then of course the cross will not make sense to you.It will also not make sense if you cannot understand His absolute Mercy and Grace, in combination with His absolute Justice. To you, He must be one or the other, and though this may be so within finite terms, this is not so with the Infinite God.You can't see it?But you can see it, and that is why He did it, so that it would not be some distant religious concept, but a hard, bloody, physical, and emperical reality.You still will not believe... even though He couldn't have given a brighter light to get your attention, and for you to examine for yourself.Yes Ringo... He died for you too. He died for us all before we understood why, and even before most had ever sinned.Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Reject that and we will pay ourselves because justice must be served. If it were not so, then justice would be a travesty.I think it was G.K. Chesterton who said, "I am not going to complain that God did not give us many ways to Heaven. I am going to thank Him for giving at least one'. (paraphrased)The thing to grasp is that we really do deserve death. And it is no coincidence that we will all die. Personally, I wouldn't want to live with this corrupted half-life of a body, in a half-life of a life forever anyway.Which reminds me, that people talk of pergatory... even C.S. Lewis, whom I greatly admire, held some rather bizzare views on the concept. This is pergatory friends... this is the last chance to understand. And if you don't believe in your own depravity, then consider that your own motivations for not wanting to believe, and you'll soon see that the problem isn't with God and his message, but your own selfish will (and that is autobiographical of course... though not limited to my own human experince. It is the human experience whether it is confessed or not).So don't back yourself into a corner yet... leave your options open for belief, because you never know when He might reach you...Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Ringo:But that's just the thing... my conscious confirms what the Bible already says. I don't think your talking about conscious. I think your conflating the little voice that says, 'don't do that', with the little voice that says, 'do it.'You're also assuming that my concious is my own. How do you know that? Maybe I am the one who wants to, 'do it'; and my conscious is God's kingdom within, trying to bring me home from ruin.How can I know the way?What you call strength, courage, and charting my own path, I call foolish, selfish, and prideful. History is replete with those who charted their own course, and few of us look upon them favorably. The reason is that they do not live in a vaccuum. Their decisions affect the rest of us who share this world.How can I plot my own course without taking yours into consideration, and vice-versa? We will inevitably disagree when our wills collide.Fortunately, we at least discuss our differences. But in doing so, we assume reason to be within the grasp of each other. some people are not interested in reason. They are the condemend; and not by us mind you... we do not want to condemn anyone, but by themselves. They leave us no choice. Right there is the real life example of both mercy and justice in action. All the while, mercy is refused...

Ringo:Sounds to me like Deism (with no revealed truth) takes a leap of faith that is far more tenuous than that of the 'seing faith' of Christ.You boys are insidious... first you mock our faith as blind, and then in the same day, show your appriciation for the strength and fortitude it takes to have blind faith. Gee wiz...Christianity is not the easy way out Ringo. It is the hard way, and the only way out. And it is so, because you will not get any glory for leaving control in the hands of another. And prideful creatures want glory more than anything...Why do you think you and I are here?Of course there is more than one reason, but not the least of which is showing each other just how smart we really are. Only in my case, the knowledge is not my own, it is God's.Am I inventing reality by agreeing with it?

Ringo:In the sciences, it is known as consistency and confirmation of a theory (theo). But even what they say confirms the Bible...Even evil points to God's goodness.

Ringo: The real world?Now your talking about reality from a purely secular (this worldy) point of view?Some people love theri neighbors, others eat them... that's reality? Do you have a preference?Tell me Ringo... what is reality? Is it the here and now that we must compromise with to survive? Or is it the intended purpose that our conscious confirms, before humans tried to think for themselves outside of one parameter, and become imaginative?There was only one rule... and we broke it. Now we need hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of them. Don't you get it?

Ringo:Well, at least you acknowledge the exclusivity of truth. Anglagard, Archeropterix, PaulK et al... seem to have difficulty grasping that concept. Nice to see you get it.So, there really is only one way, one truth, and one life...You're alright Ringo...Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Razd: Are you speaking of Deism, or philosophical constructs of any kind?

Ringo: Well then, any answer will do... I don;t know why you'd expect them to be the same.

Razd: Am I not allowed the curtiousy of backing away from a position?I confess that I do not know. I thought you'd be pleased to have noticed that that was clear. But you seem to have a need to push me into the ground to boot...I am undecided since having not looked at all of the debate in that arena. I interpret the Bible literally, but many of those interpretations have a deeper literal message than what appears on the surface.Why you need to call it 'avoiding it in abject fear' is a bit strange. I thought we had all grown past some of these really petty games. I could just as easily say that you avoided whole threads that were basedupon some of your comments. It simply isn't necessary. I expect that yours is also a position in relative flux. There are bigger fish to fry than the age of the earth. I let it go, won't you?The fact is, I dramatically underestimated the subject and decided it best (wise not fearful) to let it alone untill I brought myself up to speed. There is a time to shut one's mouth, and I must say that that was a particularly hard lesson for me, and I do not expect that I am completely over it, since even now, I suspect I am saying more than needs to be said.Btw, a further suprise came to me when discussing the subject with my pastor of the foursquare church I attend (foursquare pastors are nut-jobs as everyone knows) and he said to me that he is undecided on the issue of the age of the earth. We agreed that it is not fundamental to the faith. We also agreed that what we can know for sure, is that there was a specific time period inwhich the universe was made. The six days may be taken to be symbolic of that. We make this observation based upon the fact that many other biblical passages are in fact expressing the concept of specific times or numerical representation without necessarily giving the exact figures. By focusing on the number, the actual point can be missed. God is the master of parables for a very specific reason that may be worthy of discussion in another thread. Buyt that is my current position.So don't lump me in with the YEC's so quickly, I have an open mind...As my pastor put it... God is not in a hurry. Unfortuantely, I have been many times. I intend to change that by conceding to His patience, wisdom, and grace as he enables me.And I have to ask Razd, 'how is my question off topic when you are the one who brought it up'? I am only trying to clarify what it is you intended to say. I could have just made an assumption and ran with it as I have done in the past. But some of us are growing. Care to join me?