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Author Topic:   The historical Jesus didn't create a new religion!
andersbranderud
Junior Member (Idle past 5202 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 1 of 21 (484111)
09-26-2008 2:57 PM


This post we about the historical Jesus . who was he? Did he or his followers create a new religion? According to historical scholarship [sources: see at the bottom of this post] he practised what corresponds to today’s Orthodox Judaism all his life. His followers were called Netzarim - that is Hebrew [it means offshoot (of a olive tree)] and is a name in the Jewish
Bible that is used for Messiah.
During the first century those who practised Judaism were very devoted their religion. Just like King David and all other Jews throughout history they practised Torah (Instruction) - the Instructions of the Creator - with joy! The most prominent university professors in this field Prof. Elisha Qimron , author of the most authoritative treatise on 4Q MMT, demonstrates that all three of the major sects of first century Judaism followed both written and oral Torah.
Louis Feldman (”The Omnipresence of the G*od-Fearers,” Biblical Archaeology Review, 1986.09-10, p. 45, 58ff) observes: “the Jews were apparently extraordinarily successful in winning converts”
Year 7 B.C.E Ribi Yehoshua were born in Bethlehem. His father name was Yoseiph and his mothers name was Miryam. His parents were practising Jews.
According to world-recognized authorities in this area Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee (a Torah-practising Jewish group - who according to 4Q MMT practised both written and oral Torah). As the earliest church historians, most eminent modern university historians, our web site (The only authentic Netzarim - i.e. in Ra'anana in Israel led by Paqid Yirmeyahu ha-Tzadiq) and our Khavruta (Distance Learning) texts confirm, the original teachings of Ribi Yehoshua were not only accepted by most of the Pharisaic Jewish community, he had hoards of Jewish students.
He took care of sick and made it popular among the masses to pray in what corresponds to today’s Orthodox synagogues. The genealogically non-priest, Hellenist “Wicked Priest” Temple-Sadducees felt that their power was threaten by Ribi Yehoshua. They decided to get him crucified by the Romans. The Romans convicted and crucified Ribi Yehoshua year 30
C.E.
Ribi Yehoshua’s followers Netzarim were expelled from Jerusalem 135 C.E: together with all other Jews. The first Christian bishop Markos replaced the fifteenth leader of Netzarim Yehudah, ha-Tzadiq. This Christian bishop didn’t have permission to do this. What the Paul the apostate and later the founder of Christianity did was to take some concepts that Ribi Yehoshua had taught; they Hellenized the concepts and included them in the religion which they practiced - Hellenism - the religion of the Greeks. (Sources: See Ecclesiastical History (EH IV.v.1-4; EH V.xii.1) )
Anyone educated in this field knows that the only sect of Judaism that had rabbis was the Pharisee and even the Christian NT described him as a rabbi. Parkes, Bagatti, Wilson, Charlesworth; all world-recognized authorities in this area leave no doubt that Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee, of the school of Hileil - who was also Pharisee. There is no serious dispute about that among scholars in the field. Ribi Yehoshua taught in "synagogues"; which were a strictly Pharisee institution.
Following the teachings of the Judaic Mshiakh (Messiah) Ribi Yehoshua - that is doing one’s utmost to practice the 613 commandments of Torah - also brings the inner joy, purpose and happiness of working intimately with him to bring about, and participate in, the Messianic era, enjoying a higher level of communion with ha-Sheim - the Creator - as party to Yirmeyhu's (Jeremiah’s) New Covenant.
If you want to learn about the Historical Ribi Yehoshua, whose followers Orthodox Jews can live with (witness the Netzarim Jews in Raanana, Israel, members in good standing in an Orthodox synagogue), you must start with books like How Jesus Became Christian by Prof. Barrie Wilson (most bookstores) and Who Are The Netzarim? (publ. Schueller House; Forbidden) by Israeli Orthodox Jew, Paqid Yirmeyahu Ben-David.
Finding the historical Jew, who was a Pharisee Ribi and following him brings you into Torah, which gives you a rich and meaningful life here on earth and great rewards in life after death (“heaven”)!
From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav of Netzarim (Netzarim Jews; Ra'anana, Israel) who are follower of Ribi Yehoshua - Messiah - in Orthodox Judaism

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 21 (484121)
09-26-2008 4:03 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5229 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 3 of 21 (521806)
08-29-2009 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by andersbranderud
09-26-2008 2:57 PM


quote:
This post we about the historical Jesus . who was he? Did he or his followers create a new religion? According to historical scholarship [sources: see at the bottom of this post] he practised what corresponds to today’s Orthodox Judaism all his life.
What is Orthodox Judaism, or orthodox Judaism? If it is following the 600+ Laws of Moses in order to be acceptable, it is one thing, but if it is following in the footsteps of Abraham, who was justified by his faith, it is something very different.
In time, following Mosaic Law was said through Jeremiah to be inadequate:
'The Lord says, "The time is coming when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and led them out of Egypt. Although I was like a husband to them, they did not keep that covenant. The new covenant that I will make with the people of Israel will be this: I will put my law within them and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. None of them will have to teach his fellow countryman to know the Lord, because all will know me, from the least to the greatest, because I will forgive their sins and I will no longer remember their wrongs. I, the Lord, have spoken."' Jer 31:31-34
So it seems that there was to be a replacement for Moses, who was a teacher only to show that a return to Abraham's inheritance was necessary. It may be that orthodox Judaism is found by following Jesus, who has forgiven sins, as the Messiah, as indeed the New Testament indicates.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by andersbranderud, posted 09-26-2008 2:57 PM andersbranderud has not replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3852 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 4 of 21 (522189)
09-01-2009 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by andersbranderud
09-26-2008 2:57 PM


less copypasta, more topic
Hi,
If you're going to copy wholesale from websites propounding the ideas from a small, orthodox jewish sect that most jews don't agree with, you really should say so a bit clearer - but I see that you copy, from a copy, from a copy...
Your topic though is interesting - as far as I can tell, Jesus didn't exist.
As for your "Ribi Yehoshua" ("rabbi Yehoshua"), so far all I can find are pretty much verbatim copies of your text (so you're not the only one with copypasta disease) and HIS existence seems to be more than a little suspect too.
This doesn't generally impress me, and quite frankly I'd have a real hard time wading through the years of research it could take to find out what all the fuss is about.
Have you got something, somewhere, that's distilled enough to share?
Edited by greyseal, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by andersbranderud, posted 09-26-2008 2:57 PM andersbranderud has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by FullCircle, posted 11-27-2009 2:00 AM greyseal has replied

  
FullCircle
Junior Member (Idle past 5202 days)
Posts: 4
Joined: 11-27-2009


Message 5 of 21 (537112)
11-27-2009 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by greyseal
09-01-2009 4:55 PM


wow...
How can you look at the past 2000 years of human history and say that Jesus didn't live? That's ignorant, friend. We've divided our years by his existence (Before Christ and Ano Domini). Can you doubt that Mohammed (familiarity with Islam lacking, I have spelled that wrong... apologies to all) lived, that the Buddha lived? These great religious leaders throughout the centuries certainly lived. Their footprints remain to this day in their teachings that have been carried through the generations. The only thing you can call into question about Christ is whether he was the true son of god (which I don't believe he was, but that's a different discussion).
They've even found his family's tomb... Rather, a tomb that had a Mary, a Joseph, a few others that shared the names of Jesus's siblings, as well as a sarcophagus that was DNA tested to also be a child of Mary's.
If you're looking at Christianity and saying you don't believe it because of all the evidence that says its wrong, then don't ignore the evidence that says you're wrong, otherwise you're doing the same thing and thinking yourself "enlightened" as you do it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by greyseal, posted 09-01-2009 4:55 PM greyseal has replied

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andersbranderud
Junior Member (Idle past 5202 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 6 of 21 (537214)
11-27-2009 4:08 PM


Purpose of the Creator
Hello Ochaye and sorry for a late reply!
You wrote: following Mosaic Law was said through Jeremiah to be inadequate
It is written in Torah that any prophet who adds mitzwot (commandments) or removes mitzwot from Torah is a false prophet. (See Devarim (Deuteronomy) 13:1-6)
All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
If there should stand up in your midst a Nvi (prophet) or a dreamer of dreams, and he will produce for you a sign or wonder [i.e., miracle] saying it proves that you should follow a different g*od which you hadn't previously known, to worship it, and the sign or wonder happens don't listen to the words of that Nvi or dreamer of dreams. For ha-Sheim [the Creator] your lohim is testing you to know whether you love ha-Sheim [the Creator] your lohim with all of your Leivv and with all of your nphsh. You shall follow ha-Sheim your lohim, and revere Him; you shall keep His mitzwot (commandments on the seventh day on the seventh day according to the Jewish week} and Shema (hearken) to His voice; you shall serve Him, and stick to Him. And that Nvi and that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death'"
Thus according to the above statement anyone stating that Torah is inadequate is a false prophet.
So if Ribi Yehoshua or his followers contradicted Torah in their teachings, then according to Torah one shouldn’t follow their teachings. But there is no historical fact that implies that Ribi Yehoshua or his followers taught anything in contradiction to Torah.
You write about a new covenant — berit khadashah in Hebrew.
Further, there is no implication of any significant difference in kind or radical change in direction inherent in the adjective "new." Even in English, "new" doesn't imply (logically) significant difference in kind or radical change in direction. If someone with one or more children tells you that their wife had a "new" baby, no reasonable person coming to see the "new" baby would be shocked that it isn't a camel or a begonia. Even when a shampoo company advertises an "all new" formula, you would be quite upset if you looked in the mirror after using it and discovered their "new" formula — even though it was advertised as "all new" — was a permanent hair removal cream! —Quote Atonement in the New Biblical Covenant (found in Netzarim Jews; Ra'anana, Israel)
If you read the verses in Hebrew you see that in the berit khadashah the Creator will put Torah in the hearts of the followers of the berit. The Creator does not change (Malakhi 3:6) and his mitzwot (commandments ) does not change (Devarim 13:1-6).
That Avraham was righteous by faith is not found in Torah. It contradicts Torah. Avraham made his sincerest to keep what then was the developing Torah and when he did that, the Creator in His khein (grace) bestowed His foregivness (read Yekhezeqiel (Hesekiel) 18 in Hebrew and you will see which lifestyle is required of us by the Creator).
Anders Branderud
Edited by andersbranderud, : No reason given.
Edited by andersbranderud, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by AdminPD, posted 11-27-2009 8:01 PM andersbranderud has not replied
 Message 8 by Arphy, posted 11-30-2009 9:13 PM andersbranderud has replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 7 of 21 (537236)
11-27-2009 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by andersbranderud
11-27-2009 4:08 PM


Welcome
Welcome Anders,
If you use the reply button at the bottom right corner of the post to which you are responding, the poster will get an email telling him that you responded. Otherwise, he has no way of knowing until he checks the thread.
This also helps readers follow the discussion.
Also check out the various styles of quote boxes we have available.
First we have the classic lines. Many EvC members prefer this one for quoting their opponent.
Just type [quote]Purple is a unique color[/quote] and it becomes:
quote:
Purple is a unique color
Next we have the basic box. Many members use this one to quote from outside sources.
Simply type [qs]And it is truly a unique individual who holds it dear.[/qs] and it becomes:
And it is truly a unique individual who holds it dear.
Our final option, when you want to make sure there is no doubt who or what source you are quoting, just type [qs=purpledawn]Purple is a unique color, and it is truly a unique individual who holds it dear.[/qs] and it becomes:
purpledawn writes:
Purple is a unique color, and it is truly a unique individual who holds it dear.
The Practice Makes Perfect thread is available for trying out each of these quotes.
Hopefully this will help you choose which style suits your purpose.
Thank you
AdminPD Purple
Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by andersbranderud, posted 11-27-2009 4:08 PM andersbranderud has not replied

  
Arphy
Member (Idle past 4423 days)
Posts: 185
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-23-2009


Message 8 of 21 (537778)
11-30-2009 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by andersbranderud
11-27-2009 4:08 PM


Re: Purpose of the Creator
There are many things one could say to this.
However here are some questions I would like to ask you. Are you really following the Torah? You don't have a temple, and you don't practice the commandments given in the Torah. Have you ever disobeyed the teachings in the Torah? Have you ever brought a sin offering? Have any of the Netzarim followers over the years ever brought sin offerings as required in the law? Have you followed all the cleansing laws? probably not. How will you ever be able to stand before God at the day of judgement? He is righteous and you are not. How can you see God and live? He is Holy and you are not.
Your arguments about the word "new" are completely off the mark. It doesn't say "renew" it says "new", in other words it is not the same as the old one.
Also note Matthew 5:17 Jesus says "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by andersbranderud, posted 11-27-2009 4:08 PM andersbranderud has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by andersbranderud, posted 12-01-2009 5:06 PM Arphy has replied

  
andersbranderud
Junior Member (Idle past 5202 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 9 of 21 (537915)
12-01-2009 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Arphy
11-30-2009 9:13 PM


Re: Purpose of the Creator
Arphy wrote:
Also note Matthew 5:17 Jesus says "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
Reconstructing the teachings of the first century Ribi Yehoshua (the Messiah) from Nazareth, using logic to remove words a Torah-Ribi [a title for a prominent Jewish leader; see glossaries in the main page in the below link] impossible can have said, the logical conclusion is that he said the following:
"Don't think that I came to uproot the Torah or the Neviim [prophets], but rather I came to reconcile them with the Oral Law of emet (truth). Should the heavens and ha-aretz (the land, particularly referring to Israel) exchange places, still, not even one ' (yod) nor one ` (qeren) of the Oral Law of Mosheh shall so much as exchange places; until it shall become that it is all being fully ratified and performed non-selectively. For whoever deletes one Oral Law from the Torah, or shall teach others such, by those in the Realm of the heavens he shall be called "deleted." Both he who preserves and he who teaches them shall be called Ribi in the Realm of the heavens. For I tell you that unless your Tzedaqah (righteousness) is over and above that of the Sophrim, and of the [probably 'Herodian'] Rabbinic-Perushim (corrupted to "Pharisees"), there is no way you will enter into the Realm of the heavens!
Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu 5:17-20.
A logical analysis (see the above book which includes the arguments of why the passage is translated as above) implies that he didn’t use the word fulfil.
It is written in Torah that any prophet who adds mitzwot (commandments) or removes mitzwot from Torah is a false prophet. (See Devarim (Deuteronomy) 13:1-6) (Link:http://www.mechon-mamre.org/)
So if Ribi Yehoshua or his followers contradicted Torah in their teachings, then according to Torah one shouldn’t follow their teachings. But there is no historical fact that implies that Ribi Yehoshua or his followers taught anything in contradiction to Torah.
The website of Netzarim (Netzarim Jews; Ra'anana, Israel) documents research which proves NT to be redacted — see the glossaries (link in the main page).
There are many things one could say to this.
However here are some questions I would like to ask you. Are you really following the Torah? You don't have a temple, and you don't practice the commandments given in the Torah. Have you ever disobeyed the teachings in the Torah? Have you ever brought a sin offering? Have any of the Netzarim followers over the years ever brought sin offerings as required in the law? Have you followed all the cleansing laws? probably not.
I do my sincerest to keep the mitzwot (commandments). According to Torah (read Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4f (in Hebrew) et. al) the Creator does not require more than that. To sacrifice requires a beit ha-miqdash (hellenized to temple). Thus it is not possible to sacrifice anymore. The Creator does only require that humankind does their sincerest to keep Torah — He does not require us to do the impossible.
If you study the original text in Hebrew and the passage about sacrifices in Tan’’kh (the Jewish Bible) you will find out that it was impossible to get the foregivness from the Creator without turning away from ones Torah-transgressions. If you sacrificed and didn’t turn away from your transgressions of Torah, then you didn’t receive foregiveness. The Creator does not change (Malakhi 3:6). It is clear from Yekhezeqiel 18 that the persons who does the sincerest to keep Torah gets foregivness from the Creator in his khein (loving kindness) and the person who wilfully transgressed Torah didn’t get any foregivness. Christians regularly transgress Torah by eating fork, shell fish and doing things on Shabat which is not allow according to Torah (for example cooking food or working on Shabat). Also praying to Jesus is not allowed according to Torah. A logical analysis shows that Ribi Yehoshua was a human and his teachings have been perverted in perverting him into a god-man-idol.
The sacrifices that was made was a symbol for the provision of the Creator. The Creator’s provision is Ribi Yehoshua ha-Mashiakh (the Messiah). I prove in the my blog (bloganders.blogspot.com) the existence of a non-dimensional Creator independent of time-space. This implies that all humans that ever have lived can receive the foregiveness of the Creator when they have done their sincerest to practise the mitzwot in Torah (when one reads Torah one sees that the Torah was developed since Adam and Khava; even in the beginning of Torah there are instructions). Thus, the sacrifices that were sacrificed after that Ribi Yehoshua was killed (if it were any) were also a symbol of the provision of the Creator.
How will you ever be able to stand before God at the day of judgement? He is righteous and you are not. How can you see God and live? He is Holy and you are not.
Your arguments about the word "new" are completely off the mark. It doesn't say "renew" it says "new", in other words it is not the same as the old one
The Creator is righteous.
To quote the Christians-page in our website: Being logically consistent (orderly), the universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-CreatorWho must be Perfectly Orderly; i.e. Perfect. Therefore, no intelligent person can ignore that our purpose and challenge in life is learning how we, as imperfect humans, may successfully relate to a Perfect Singularity-Creator without our co-mingling, which transcends the timespace of this dimensional physical universe, becoming an imperfection to the Perfect Singularity-Creator.
The rest of the proof in the Christian-page implies that all of humankind are obligated to follow Torah. If you knew Torah and knew Hebrew than you would know that it is written in Torah that the Creator makes us holy when we keep shabat. As I said, the Creator in His khein (loving kindness) gives His foregiveness to the persons who strives their sincerest to keep the mitzwot in Torah.
Regarding your intrerpretaion of khadash (new). So you mean that the Creator would contradict His own Torah — making Himself a false prophet according to Devarim 13:1-6, by instituting a berit (covenant) contradicting Torah? Your interpretations are illogical and therefore you have the burden of proof to prove your statement not merely assuming it.
Quote from Atonement in the Biblical Covenant (found in the website of Netzarim): Assuming the weight of evidence wrong is a logical fallacy called argumentum ad ignorantiam; in modern parlance, proofshift. Whenever there is a known state, anyone wishing to claim a change in that state assumes the burden of proving that change. The burden of proof never shifts to require showing a known state continues to be the same. Logic places the burden of proof on Displacement Theology to prove displacement, not on defenders of Torh to prove it hasn't been displaced. 4Q MMTdemonstrates that Torh was clearly considered valid and all of the above is consistent with, and corroborates, Judaism before 135 C.E. It is not enough for Displacement Theology or proponents of supersession to assume Displacement or Christian claims of supersession. Displacement or supersession must be proven. No one can even defend it credibly, much less prove it.
Unless Tana"kh states a diametric change explicitly and unambiguously, illucidating the logical consistency in the diametric change of direction, one is never justified in rejecting a well-solved (i.e., known-consistent) interpretation, and never to default to an inconsistent interpretation of some radical change.
If Yirmeyhu had been writing in English, he would have had to imply such a radical change — encompassing both, direction and kind — by at least explaining that this would be "another" berit, implying kind and direction.
Hebrew has two terms to express the English idea of "another":
עוד (od; another similar, more of the same)
אחר (akheir; another that's different), the fem. form is אחרת (akhrt)
Anders Branderud

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Arphy, posted 11-30-2009 9:13 PM Arphy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Arphy, posted 12-02-2009 2:13 AM andersbranderud has replied
 Message 12 by ICANT, posted 12-02-2009 3:06 AM andersbranderud has replied

  
Arphy
Member (Idle past 4423 days)
Posts: 185
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-23-2009


Message 10 of 21 (537938)
12-02-2009 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by andersbranderud
12-01-2009 5:06 PM


Re: Purpose of the Creator
What does a "reconstruction" mean? What you think should have been written? Or what you think it might have said in the original?
Jesus isn't just a prophet.
Jesus didn't contradict the laws. He fulfilled them. He also supersedes the law because he is God.
The Creator does only require that humankind does their sincerest to keep Torah — He does not require us to do the impossible.
If God had wanted to he could have kept the temple standing, but he didn't, why? I don't think being sincere is enough. We are still in our sins. God is holy, we are not, we cannot be together. Throughout the old testament we see that innocent blood pays for the remission of sins. Does God contradict himself? Is blood not actually needed for forgiveness of sins? Then why did he institute it if it serves no purpose? Yes, God is gracious. But he is also holy.
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
I think that generally the book of Hebrews would be a good book for you to read.
btw, what does Deuteronomy have to do with this? You are just randomly taking a swipe at the doctrine of the trinity.
So you mean that the Creator would contradict His own Torah — making Himself a false prophet according to Devarim 13:1-6, by instituting a berit (covenant) contradicting Torah?
How does it contradict? Anyway, they are not simultaneous. one comes after the other. So yes it supersedes the old covenant. Why? Because Jesus fulfilled the old covenant. A new covenant was needed to reflect this. Yes, this covenant is not fully revealed in the old testament but it is there (Again read Hebrews, and stephen's speech in Acts). Also another question for you, who is Messiah? Why is he the Messiah? What is he supposed to do?
I agree with you that God is outside of time. Hence also why Jesus said
Joh 14:6 "I am the Way," replied Jesus, "and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
That is everybody who comes to the Father comes through Jesus, whether past, present, or future. So yes, faith is credited as righteousness, as great people of the bible held to the hope to come. However, innocent blood is still needed. Jesus, paid that price.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by andersbranderud, posted 12-01-2009 5:06 PM andersbranderud has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Brian, posted 12-02-2009 3:05 AM Arphy has not replied
 Message 13 by andersbranderud, posted 12-04-2009 2:16 PM Arphy has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4949 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 11 of 21 (537943)
12-02-2009 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Arphy
12-02-2009 2:13 AM


Re: Purpose of the Creator
However, innocent blood is still needed.
Why is innocent blood needed, for what purpose?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Arphy, posted 12-02-2009 2:13 AM Arphy has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 12 of 21 (537944)
12-02-2009 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by andersbranderud
12-01-2009 5:06 PM


Re: Torah
Hi andersbranderud
Welcome to EvC.
andersbranderud writes:
According to Torah
I have 2 questions,
What particular set of writings are you referring to as the Torah?
Was Jesus God in a flesh body?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by andersbranderud, posted 12-01-2009 5:06 PM andersbranderud has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by andersbranderud, posted 12-04-2009 2:22 PM ICANT has replied

  
andersbranderud
Junior Member (Idle past 5202 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 13 of 21 (538211)
12-04-2009 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Arphy
12-02-2009 2:13 AM


Re: Purpose of the Creator
[qc]What does a "reconstruction" mean? What you think should have been written? Or what you think it might have said in the original?[/qc]
Please read the glossaries-entry NT in Netzarim Jews; Ra'anana, Israel . A scientific research of the earliest MSS show inconsistencies inbetween them. Reconstruction in the way it has removed all things a first century Ribi — a Torah teacher — impossible would have said. And reconstructed words Christian redactors have emitted. You will find all arguments of why it is reconstructed in a certain way in Netzarim Hebrew Reconstruction of Mattityahu found in in our website
An analysis of the earliest MSS shows that Ribi Yehoshua taught in batei ha-kneset (synagogues). We know from first century Jewish documents — like 4Q MMT — that to teach in the batei ha-kneset in the first century Israel one was required to adhere to Torah. Thus Ribi Yehoshua can impossible have uttered quotes like Joh 3:16, which contradicts Torah. Why is that so? Read my last post.
You wrote: Jesus isn't just a prophet.
The definition of the original word navi, which is translated prophet is: lit. "the one bringing"; i.e., a prophet; one who calls, proclaims, prophesies; from the verb נִבָּא (nib′; he brought forth, called, proclaimed, prophesied), i.e. one who explicates Torh′. In Hebrew,
According to Devarim (Deuteronomy) 13:1-6 Jesus is not a prophet one should follow. One shouldn’t follow any prophet which adds or substracts a mitzwah from Torah. This according to the Torah which Christians claim to be the Word of the Creator. This according to the Torah which Ribi Yehoshua ha-Mashiakh (the Messiah) taught, and his followers Netzarim taught.
You wrote: Jesus didn't contradict the laws. He fulfilled them. He also supersedes the law because he is God.
Your first sentence definies him as a false prophet according to Torah. Also your second sentence. That a person is God contradicts science, logic and Tan’’kh (the Jewish Bible). According to Tan’’kh Mashiakh will be an ordinary human.
You wrote:
If God had wanted to he could have kept the temple standing, but he didn't, why? I don't think being sincere is enough. We are still in our sins. God is holy, we are not, we cannot be together. Throughout the old testament we see that innocent blood pays for the remission of sins. Does God contradict himself? Is blood not actually needed for forgiveness of sins? Then why did he institute it if it serves no purpose? Yes, God is gracious. But he is also holy.
You assume that the Creator would stop the Romans from destroying the beit ha-miqdash. The Creator has given humankind a free will and he will not interfere with that free will. Sincerity is enough according to Devarim 6:4. The Creator does not require the impossible of any human. For example you can read Mikhah 6:8.
8 It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, and what the LORD doth require of thee: only to do justly [in Hebrew the word used is mishpat], and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.
So what is mishpat? Quote from Netzarims glossaries-page: Mishәptim′ are the product of Shophәtim′ I think that generally the book of Hebrews would be a good book for you to read. [/qs] My reply: I read in many times. I was a Christian for six years.
btw, what does Deuteronomy have to do with this? You are just randomly taking a swipe at the doctrine of the trinity. It is a book contradicting Torah and thus is not relevant for doctrine.
You wrote:
How does it contradict? Anyway, they are not simultaneous. one comes after the other. So yes it supersedes the old covenant. Why? Because Jesus fulfilled the old covenant. A new covenant was needed to reflect this. Yes, this covenant is not fully revealed in the old testament but it is there (Again read Hebrews, and stephen's speech in Acts). Also another question for you, who is Messiah? Why is he the Messiah? What is he supposed to do?
I mentioned above how it contradicts. Torah teaches that one shouldn’t add or subtract mitzwot (commandments) from Torah.
You wrote: So yes it supersedes the old covenant. Your statement contradicts an unchanging Creator (Malakhi 3:6) and Devarim 13:1-6.
You wrote: Because Jesus fulfilled the old covenant. According to Torah he contradicted the berit (covenant) in Torah. Ribi Yehoshua is the Mashiakh. The role of the Mashiakh is described in Yeshayahu (Isiah) 53.
You wrote:
I agree with you that God is outside of time. Hence also why Jesus said
We agree on the first sentence. The second sentence contradicts logic and science.
Joh 3:16 which you quote contradicts what I wrote in my last post.
You wrote:
That is everybody who comes to the Father comes through Jesus, whether past, present, or future. So yes, faith is credited as righteousness, as great people of the bible held to the hope to come. However, innocent blood is still needed. Jesus, paid that price.
My reply: The historical person was named Ribi Yehoshua. He was killed innocently and became a sacrifice. His teachings have been redacted and the redacted teachings are now found in the gospels. Jesus would have been an invalid sacrifice since he contradicts Torah in Joh 3:16 and more, teaching contradicting to Torah.
You wrote: So yes, faith is credited as righteousness
Not in a single instance in Torah is righteousness promised to the man-god Jesus whose teachings contradicts Torah.
Anders Branderud

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Arphy, posted 12-02-2009 2:13 AM Arphy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Arphy, posted 12-06-2009 2:00 AM andersbranderud has not replied

  
andersbranderud
Junior Member (Idle past 5202 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 14 of 21 (538213)
12-04-2009 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ICANT
12-02-2009 3:06 AM


Re: Torah
Icant wrote:
I have 2 questions,
What particular set of writings are you referring to as the Torah?
Was Jesus God in a flesh body?
God Bless,
The original versions (i.e. in Heberw) of the five first books in the Jewish Bible.
Logic requires a distinction between the Torah-teacher Ribi Yehoshua and le-havdil Jesus who contradicted Torah.
Mashiakh according to Tan’’kh (the Jewish Bible) is a human. Ribi Yehoshua was a human.
May you be blessed by the Creator when you practise His instructions,
Have a nice weekend!! Anders Branderud
Edited by andersbranderud, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by ICANT, posted 12-02-2009 3:06 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by ICANT, posted 12-04-2009 4:48 PM andersbranderud has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 15 of 21 (538228)
12-04-2009 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by andersbranderud
12-04-2009 2:22 PM


Re: Torah
Hi andersbranderud,
andersbranderud writes:
The original versions (i.e. in Heberw) of the five first books in the Jewish Bible.
I didn't know the clay tablets Moses wrote on was available. That is what would be necessary for you to be using the original versions.
So apparently you are not using the originals as they don't exist.
Therefore you must be using copies of copies of copies etc.
So I was asking what is the source you are using.
God Bless,
You have a nice weekend also.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by andersbranderud, posted 12-04-2009 2:22 PM andersbranderud has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2009 5:02 PM ICANT has not replied

  
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