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Author Topic:   All in the Family - Guest star: Neanderthal
randman 
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Posts: 6367
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Message 46 of 96 (277966)
01-11-2006 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Modulous
01-08-2006 7:10 PM


Re: Evolutionists have been trying to set the record straight since the 50s
Btw, I once did a thread asking people to honestly state how Neanderthals were presented to them. It was interesting.

This message has been edited by randman, 01-11-2006 02:25 AM


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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 47 of 96 (277967)
01-11-2006 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Modulous
01-09-2006 8:00 AM


Re: Evolutionists have been trying to set the record straight since the 50s
Sloppiness and incompetence works just as good as deliberate conspiracy which I did not maintain, even though it benefitted evos to inadvertently or otherwise fool the public about the data.
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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 48 of 96 (277968)
01-11-2006 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Nuggin
01-10-2006 8:43 PM


Re: Now that you're back...
I am not an expert on Homo Erectus and am aware that perhaps there are various forms referred to here, but in general, I have no problem thinking of him as a man, as people, if there were tools and evidence of thinking and acting as people.

This message has been edited by randman, 01-11-2006 02:28 AM


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 174 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 49 of 96 (277969)
01-11-2006 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by randman
01-11-2006 2:23 AM


Re: Evolutionists have been trying to set the record straight since the 50s
I once did a thread asking people to honestly state how Neanderthals were presented to them. It was interesting.

could you link that, please? i want to see.

also, keep in mind that many people completely misunderstand science. popular opinion isn't really evidence of conspiracy or even sloppiness of the scientists' parts. afterall, in a poll 82% of americans believed that the phrase "god helps those who help themselves" is in the bible.


אָרַח

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
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Message 50 of 96 (277970)
01-11-2006 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Nuggin
01-10-2006 11:08 PM


Doesn't pass the smell test

Actually, they don't. Book publishers do. Your side of the debate frequently mistakes the actions of book publishers as some sort of scientific baseline.

Actually, I showed on the Haeckel threads you were wrong to assert this. Evos generally write pr produce these textbooks, even university professors, such as the professor from Brown university. Trying to dimiss this as just book publishers doesn't pass the smell test, imo.

I have noticed, even in peer-review literature, a tendency among evos to rely on overstatement and defending icons way past time it was reasonable. I say "peer review" because after publicly denouncing Haeckel as one of the biggest frauds in all of biology (makes you wonder what the other ones are), a few years later and coincidentally after his comments were used to bash evos, he publishes a paper declaring them "good teaching aides."

Not to go over Haeckel again, but you have to see that with Neanderthals, Haeckel, microevolution equals macroevolution, etc, etc,...there IS A PATTERN. It's not our imagination. These are facts of evos continually relying on massive overstatements. Once you start noticing this trend, it's quite shocking to see it showing up in nearly all arguments for evolution, imo, except maybe genetics, and I say that just because I don't know as much about genetics to say one way or another, but even there, the "random mutations" parroted to the public often isn't qualified enough to have a clear, definite and testable meaning.

This message has been edited by AdminNWR, 01-11-2006 06:55 AM


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2340 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 51 of 96 (277972)
01-11-2006 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by arachnophilia
01-11-2006 2:29 AM


Re: Evolutionists have been trying to set the record straight since the 50s
You commented on it. Do a search.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 174 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 52 of 96 (277973)
01-11-2006 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by randman
01-11-2006 2:27 AM


Re: Now that you're back...
homo erectus?

yeah, how about ergaster?

or habilis?

a. africanus?

a. afarensis?

pan troglodyte?

don't get me wrong. i'm not claiming this a direct line. i just want to know when they stop being human. (most images stolen from here)


אָרַח

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 174 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 53 of 96 (277974)
01-11-2006 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by randman
01-11-2006 2:36 AM


Re: Evolutionists have been trying to set the record straight since the 50s
You commented on it. Do a search.

if it's the thread i'm thinking of, most of us argued that we understood neanderthals were not excessively ape-like, but quite equivalent to modern humans in most ways except for skeletal morphology.


אָרַח

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Modulous
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Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 54 of 96 (277978)
01-11-2006 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by randman
01-11-2006 2:25 AM


Re: Evolutionists have been trying to set the record straight since the 50s
Sloppiness and incompetence works just as good as deliberate conspiracy which I did not maintain, even though it benefitted evos to inadvertently or otherwise fool the public about the data.

Indeed, as I said:

quote:
And you're right, there is no excuse.

Sloppiness in textbooks is something we consistently agree is a bad thingTM, however, misrepresenting the hard work of evolutionary biologists and anthropologists does not benefit them.



Late Edit to clarify for the readers:
Message 27 Belfry says that evos were responsible for the change in Neanderthal depiction.
Message 29 Randman: Not soley, creationists have been complaining about the depiction since the 50s
Message 31 Mod: Evos have been trying to correct this depiction since the 30s, and in earnest since the 50s (sources cited).
Message 34 Randman: So evos depicting them wrong is inexcusable
Message 35 Mod: ANYBODY, evolutionary biologist or otherwise, that depicts them contrary to the primary literature composed by the field-relevant evolutionary biologists is guilty of sloppy research.

This message has been edited by Modulous, Fri, 13-January-2006 08:27 AM


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2340 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 55 of 96 (277980)
01-11-2006 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by arachnophilia
01-11-2006 2:41 AM


Re: Evolutionists have been trying to set the record straight since the 50s
Look at those who just answered the question about what they were taught rather than the spin game.
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2340 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 56 of 96 (277981)
01-11-2006 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by arachnophilia
01-11-2006 2:39 AM


Re: Now that you're back...
Why don't you start a thread raising this issue then?

We are talking about Neanderthals here.


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Nuggin
Member
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 57 of 96 (278085)
01-11-2006 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by randman
01-11-2006 2:27 AM


"People" still not a useful term.
I am not an expert on Homo Erectus and am aware that perhaps there are various forms referred to here, but in general, I have no problem thinking of him as a man, as people

Are using "people" to mean that Neanderthals, Homo Sapiens and Homo Erectus are, for lack of a better word, the same species?

Obviously the whole "Can they mate successfully?" test is useless in this context - so "species" here is a little suspect, like "people".

I don't really have a problem with lumping all these together as a single group whose traits may be different at different ends of the envelope.

Is that what you are saying?

Or, like someone else posted, are you using "people" to mean any of a number of different primates which have shown culture and tool use (chimps, gorillas, bonobos, orangs included)?


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Nuggin
Member
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 58 of 96 (278086)
01-11-2006 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by randman
01-11-2006 2:36 AM


Text Book Example
My bad. Rand was responding to me. It was a predictable departure from topic that I initiated. We should start a thread about who makes textbooks and who should be held accountable.
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Nuggin
Member
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 59 of 96 (278092)
01-11-2006 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by randman
01-11-2006 2:51 AM


It's not the Neanderthals I'm worried about...
This is from "Early Man" (1965)


Click to enlarge

Pictures are Neanderthal left, Cro-Mag center, Modern man right.

I don't think that this is a particularly damning image of Neanderthal. I would have drawn him more with more robust muscles and a broader chest. Also, I think his head is a little too far forward on his neck. But hardly a brutish thug.

My real problem with the picture is Cro-Mag. Where'd he get that spear? Why's he carrying it? No one else brought a spear. And no one else is looking at the side. I think Cro-Mag may have actually killed the artist after this was drawn.

Also, why keep a spear when you are buck naked?!


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AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 96 (278096)
01-11-2006 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Nuggin
01-11-2006 10:46 AM


Re: Text Book Example
Discussion of textbooks is on topic, provided that it relates directly to the current topic (that is, textbook coverage of neanderthals).

I want to avoid having this thread go off at a tangent.

There is already an open discussion of textbooks at Science Textbook Authors--are they scientists?.


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