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Author Topic:   Sin
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 153 (515436)
07-17-2009 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Blue Jay
07-17-2009 8:34 PM


Re: Telestial Kingdom
Bluejay writes:

You didn’t know that “eternal” and “endless” had a non-conventional meaning in the scriptures when you posted your argument, and, consequently, your argument was wrong.


1000 years is "endless"? You mentioned that it obviously wasn't "eternal" and I ignored it, because it didn't address anything I had claimed at all. I never claimed that Mormons were tormented endlessly, I said they were tormented. Once you seemingly conflated the prison with the Telestial Kingdom I pointed out that I didn't think you were correct in doing so, since it would imply that the torment was eternal. This is because I *clearly* understood that it was NOT!

Bluejay writes:

Religious texts can say, “wrath of God,” when neither God nor anybody’s temper is involved, and still be teaching a correct principle.


Right, ok. The words are irrelevant, it is whatever you say it says. Would this be because you are... special?

Bluejay writes:

Mormons believe that the torment and suffering we will feel is the direct result of our own actions, not something that God does to us.


What about:
LDS Website writes:

"Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory."


LDS.org
quote:
“And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, … that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.” (2 Ne. 9:15–16; see also Rev. 22:11.)

What is the meaning of the Book of Mormon scriptures on eternal hell for the wicked? writes:

"Among those at death who are assigned to hell are the heirs of the telestial kingdom and the sons of perdition. These spirits will remain in hell, or spirit prison, suffering “the wrath of Almighty God” until the millennial reign is over. (See D&C 76:106.)"
- H. Donl Peterson, professor of Ancient Scripture, Brigham Young University.


LDS.org
Encyclopedia of Mormonism/edited by Daniel H. Ludlow. writes:

The scriptures state that God sends cursings, judgments, and destruction upon the unbelieving and the rebellious, including all who reject the Savior or his prophets and are not willing to confess his hand in all things (D&C 1:6-13;59:21;63:6;88:85;104:8;124:48, 52; Moses 7:1)


Encyclopedia of Mormonism

I think it is very clear that the Mormon concept of God punishes people for 1000 years, based on their actions. It isn't "nature" doing it, it is God.

Feel free to cite your sources as well.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Blue Jay, posted 07-17-2009 8:34 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 77 of 153 (515452)
07-18-2009 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by themasterdebator
07-17-2009 9:02 PM


Re: Telestial Kingdom
Hi, Master Debator.

themasterdebator writes:

If you leave texts open to interpretation, people will interpret it the way they want, not necessarily the correct way. And there is no reason to favor one interpretation over another(other than personal preference).

This is why we meet together to discuss the doctrines, rather than let everybody go their own way and believe their own thing. The LDS Church is a worldwide organization, like the Catholic Church (but obviously smaller).


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by themasterdebator, posted 07-17-2009 9:02 PM themasterdebator has not yet responded

  
Hill Billy
Member (Idle past 2736 days)
Posts: 163
From: The hills
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 78 of 153 (515480)
07-18-2009 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by themasterdebator
07-17-2009 9:02 PM


Re: Telestial Kingdom
themasterdebator writes:

First, average people do not have the ability to properly decipher the religious texts.

Really? What do you base this statement on, personal experience? Are you drawing you conclusion based on your own inability to properly decipher the religious texts. ?

To say the Bible was written for the average person is completely false.

Why? Cause you say so?


it was written for the elite priests and leaders

This is the false statement.
The fact that individual humans have attempted ( somewhat successfully) to deny access of the scriptures to the general population has no relationship to the intent of the writers.

Essentially, it would not be a very useful book if ever time someone encounters something they have an issue with, they can shift the entire meaning and interpretation of the passages.

Try taking a breath and thinking. Carefully.
This wiggling and shifting is a result of human free will.
My Grandfather used to say " It's a poor carpenter who blames his tools."
To blame the writings for the human attempts to make them fit their own desires is very much like blaming the hammer cause you can't hit the nail.


people will interpret it the way they want.

As you have proven.
The intent, I believe, is to allow humans to follow GOD because they WANT to, not because they HAVE to.
You have this choice as well. You don't need to put so much effort into making excuses, just make your choice and live ( and die) with it.


The years tell what the days never knew.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by themasterdebator, posted 07-17-2009 9:02 PM themasterdebator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by bluescat48, posted 07-18-2009 10:25 AM Hill Billy has not yet responded
 Message 86 by themasterdebator, posted 07-18-2009 8:52 PM Hill Billy has responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 1571 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 79 of 153 (515481)
07-18-2009 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Hill Billy
07-18-2009 10:21 AM


Re: Telestial Kingdom
The intent, I believe, is to allow humans to follow GOD because they WANT to, not because they HAVE to.
You have this choice as well. You don't need to put so much effort into making excuses, just make your choice and live ( and die) with it.

This would be fine if people allowed other people to do this, rather than condemn others for not interpreting the scriptures in their manner.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Hill Billy, posted 07-18-2009 10:21 AM Hill Billy has not yet responded

    
Michamus
Member (Idle past 2539 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 80 of 153 (515520)
07-18-2009 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phage0070
07-17-2009 5:44 PM


Re: What is sin?
Phage0070 writes:


No, but when it says that someone is to "suffer the vengeance of eternal fire" I figure that, if not fire, it is at least similarly unpleasant.


Perhaps it is poetic language, just as it is when mentioning what occurs when "prompted by the spirit". I would imagine the suffering of eternal fire would be more a statement of their extreme sorrow at where their actions have led them.

Phage0070 writes:


Are you attempting to argue that suffering from eternal fire *actually* means something like intensely experiencing zeal or what?


ROFL
You know, it's pretty sad when an individual has to break things down "grade school style" in order for the opposing viewer to understand what is being said.

I highly doubt you are really that dim though, and this is merely your feeble attempt at providing yet another straw-man argument.

Phage0070 writes:


When I quote them as a group and they appear to share consistent terminology, and they refer to people who end up in the same location, after the same period of time, and under the same conditions... sure.


ROFL!!!

So, your excuse is that you mistakenly lumped 105 and 106 with the rest of the verse as being the same place. Then, when I respond with merely stating that 81, and 84 ARE referring to the same place, you somehow think (once again mistakenly) that I am referring to 105 and 106 as well... because YOU mistakenly lumped them together?

Wow... that's a solid cop out, if ever I've seen one.

Phage0070 writes:


You have a lot of insults and claims that I am wrong, but you don't seem to be able to back them up with anything other than your unsupported opinion and derisive hoots...
...
You are hectoring, you are goading, and more importantly, you are not providing an argument.


ROFL! Projecting much? You ever hear of this buddhist proverb? When you point a finger at another, 5 more point back at you.

You have had to resort to this method of "debate" with bluejay from the very beginning, due to your OBVIOUS misinformation on LDS Doctrine. I have merely shown you what your "debate style" seems like on the receiving end. Unsurprisingly you don't like it, and have decided to hypocritically utilize "forum guidelines" in a feeble attempt to make me submit to your will.

So to sum this up. You messed up, refused to admit it, and are now trying to point the blame elsewhere... Given your history on such actions, I see no point in further discussion with you, as it will only continue in a downward trend.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phage0070, posted 07-17-2009 5:44 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Blue Jay, posted 07-18-2009 2:29 PM Michamus has responded
 Message 82 by Phage0070, posted 07-18-2009 3:07 PM Michamus has responded

    
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 81 of 153 (515521)
07-18-2009 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Michamus
07-18-2009 2:04 PM


Re: What is sin?
Hi, Michamus.

Michamus writes:

You ever hear of this buddhist proverb? When you point a finger at another, 5 more point back at you.

This one only works on that guy from the Princess Bride: the rest of us only have 4 pointing back at us.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Michamus, posted 07-18-2009 2:04 PM Michamus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Michamus, posted 07-18-2009 8:24 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded
 Message 88 by ICANT, posted 07-18-2009 9:47 PM Blue Jay has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 153 (515525)
07-18-2009 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Michamus
07-18-2009 2:04 PM


Re: What is sin?
Michamus writes:

Perhaps it is poetic language, just as it is when mentioning what occurs when "prompted by the spirit". I would imagine the suffering of eternal fire would be more a statement of their extreme sorrow at where their actions have led them.


I would not dispute that your imagination is vivid.

Michamus writes:

I highly doubt you are really that dim though, and this is merely your feeble attempt at providing yet another straw-man argument.


Wouldn't accusing someone of presenting a straw man argument before they have presented one be, in and of itself, a straw man argument?

Michamus writes:

You have had to resort to this method of "debate" with bluejay from the very beginning, due to your OBVIOUS misinformation on LDS Doctrine.


Except of course that I am quoting LDS doctrine from official sources to back up my arguments.

Michamus writes:

So to sum this up. You messed up, refused to admit it, and are now trying to point the blame elsewhere... Given your history on such actions, I see no point in further discussion with you, as it will only continue in a downward trend.


Phage0070 writes:

Honestly, I don't know what else you can try other than to accuse me of unforgivable rudeness and being generally impossible to deal with. Then you can refuse to respond and make it out to be my fault.


Check. Maybe I should write a book of prophecy.

Edited by Phage0070, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Michamus, posted 07-18-2009 2:04 PM Michamus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Michamus, posted 07-18-2009 8:34 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded
 Message 85 by Michamus, posted 07-18-2009 8:36 PM Phage0070 has responded

  
Michamus
Member (Idle past 2539 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 83 of 153 (515542)
07-18-2009 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Blue Jay
07-18-2009 2:29 PM


Princess Bride
Bluejay writes:


This one only works on that guy from the Princess Bride: the rest of us only have 4 pointing back at us.


ROFL! That's a good one. Princess Bride is a great film. I wasn't entirely sure if it was popular in our ward alone until now
This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Blue Jay, posted 07-18-2009 2:29 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded

    
Michamus
Member (Idle past 2539 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 84 of 153 (515544)
07-18-2009 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Phage0070
07-18-2009 3:07 PM


Re: What is sin?
dupe post

Edited by Michamus, : dupe post


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Phage0070, posted 07-18-2009 3:07 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

    
Michamus
Member (Idle past 2539 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 85 of 153 (515545)
07-18-2009 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Phage0070
07-18-2009 3:07 PM


Re: What is sin?
That "prophetic statement" you made was toward Bluejay and can be found here: Re: Telestial Kingdom (Message 62).

Not really a prophecy if you prophesied about the wrong person, now is it?

This conversation has ended. Move along.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Phage0070, posted 07-18-2009 3:07 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Phage0070, posted 07-18-2009 8:56 PM Michamus has not yet responded

    
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 153 (515546)
07-18-2009 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Hill Billy
07-18-2009 10:21 AM


Re: Telestial Kingdom
Hillbilly, why did you cut out every part of my post that explained the answers to your questions? I put my claims first, the warrants immediately after. If you would include my entire post instead of editing out the parts that explain things, you would understand where I am coming from. The way you quoted my posts is highly deceptive and inaccurate.

Really? What do you base this statement on, personal experience? Are you drawing you conclusion based on your own inability to properly decipher the religious texts. ?

I will admit I should have sourced this bit, I apologize. I had assumed there was a general agreement on this point. "Only 16 percent of Christians polled said they read the Bible daily." and we are just talking about reading a copy of the Bible, not even comparative translations and looking at the original language.

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/literacy.htm

This is the false statement.
The fact that individual humans have attempted ( somewhat successfully) to deny access of the scriptures to the general population has no relationship to the intent of the writers.

You entirely dropped my main argument, which is that when the Bible was written and for the majority of its lifetime, the average person was not literate. Its not a question of denying scripture, its a question of whether the people in question could actually read. They certainly could not when the scripture was written and the authors would have known that. It is extremely egocentric to think the Bible was written specifically for your generation or for the last hundred years of the industrialized world. The only ones able to read for most of the Bibles history was the leaders and priests. And obviously literacy is a prerequisite for reading the Bible. But as I said earlier, I already pointed this out in my original post, you just chose to ignore it.

And this does not even account for the fact that among those who could read, the number who could read well enough to understand literary devices(Metaphors, Similies, Diction) and had access to original source text would be extremely small.

Try taking a breath and thinking. Carefully.
This wiggling and shifting is a result of human free will.
My Grandfather used to say " It's a poor carpenter who blames his tools."
To blame the writings for the human attempts to make them fit their own desires is very much like blaming the hammer cause you can't hit the nail.

I am not blaming the writings for human attempts to make them fit their desires, I am blaming people who try to take a highly metaphorical stance on the Bible. If the Bible is written to mean things other than what it says, then it provides allot of opening for people to shift the meaning to what they want. A literal interpretation is the only way to avoid people bringing their own viewpoints into the matter. If the word "eternal" means something different in the Bible then in almost every other instance of its use,then it causes issues with interpretation. Its no longer a good guiding our behavior if by necessity we have to bring our own opinions on the matters in question. Its no longer guiding us then. We would just be guiding it to say what we already believe.


The intent, I believe, is to allow humans to follow GOD because they WANT to, not because they HAVE to.
You have this choice as well. You don't need to put so much effort into making excuses, just make your choice and live ( and die) with it.

Fully understanding a situation in no way limits their free will. People knowingly commit wrong actions all the time. All knowledge does it better inform you of the consequences. And from my understand, informing people in the right way to live is the purpose of the Bible. If people are allowing different interpretations of words as simply as "eternal", then they aren't gaining knowledge from the Bible, they are simply affirming the beliefs they already have.

Edited by themasterdebator, : No reason given.

Edited by themasterdebator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Hill Billy, posted 07-18-2009 10:21 AM Hill Billy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Hill Billy, posted 07-19-2009 7:44 PM themasterdebator has responded
 Message 99 by Hill Billy, posted 07-20-2009 4:36 PM themasterdebator has not yet responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 153 (515547)
07-18-2009 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Michamus
07-18-2009 8:36 PM


Re: What is sin?
Michamus writes:

Not really a prophecy if you prophesied about the wrong person, now is it?


That never stopped any of the prophets I have heard of.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Michamus, posted 07-18-2009 8:36 PM Michamus has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5563
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 88 of 153 (515552)
07-18-2009 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Blue Jay
07-18-2009 2:29 PM


Re: What is sin?
Hi jay,

Bluejay writes:

This one only works on that guy from the Princess Bride: the rest of us only have 4 pointing back at us.

When I point my finger at my congregation I remind them I have 3 pointing back at me. Did I miss something somewhere?

I just looked and counted. I have 1 finger pointing at the monitor three pointing at me and my thumb pointing at the floor.

BTW I was just as specific about sin as I could be.
Greek ἁμαρτάνω means:
1) to be without a share in
2) to miss the mark
3) to err, be mistaken

Hebrew חטאת means:
1) sin, sinful
2) sin, sin offering

Those definitions are not much help either.

Sorry,

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Blue Jay, posted 07-18-2009 2:29 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Blue Jay, posted 07-19-2009 5:16 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 98 by Blue Jay, posted 07-20-2009 3:39 PM ICANT has responded

    
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 89 of 153 (515592)
07-19-2009 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phage0070
07-17-2009 5:44 PM


Re: What is sin?
Hi, Phage.

I’ve been a bit busy this weekend: I apologize for the wait.

Okay, from the beginning, the Mormon doctrine is that sin prevents the attainment of full glory. It makes us “filthy,” in the words of the scriptures (1 Nephi 15:33-34; sorry, I don’t know how to link directly to individual verses: you’ll have to scroll down).

Filthiness results in “spiritual death,” which basically means separation from God, or separation from righteousness (2 Nephi 9:12).

quote:
And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell...

We are technically all spiritually dead on Earth, because we are separated from God, but this separation is only temporary, and isn’t actually complete (because we can feel the Spirit and get revelations, etc.). But, spiritual death is also encountered two more times. Note that, in the verse quoted above, spiritual death is equated with hell, which we have already explained is in the spirit world, before Judgment.

The other time that spiritual death is encountered is when it is made permanent for the Sons of Perdition, as Michamus explained earlier.

-----

Okay, none of that was really new, but it was important background.

What is new is the issue of culpability for the torment and suffering we feel. The prophet Joseph Smith:

quote:
A man is his own tormenter and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled 1938 by Joseph Fielding Smith


Looks like I found the brimstone for you!

The fire and brimstone is, as Michamus and I have been saying, of our own making. It is, quite literally, our own sense of guilt and failure that torments us.

-----

It is a generally-accepted tenet of Mormonism that God is subject to the same eternal law of justice that we are.

Alma 42:13:

quote:
Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

Bascially, God cannot undermine justice, which requires punishment to be enacted.

Now, there are two ways of looking at this:

  1. The most common viewpoint of Mormons is, like Joseph Smith said above, we bring our own torment upon ourselves, and God is not capable of preventing the suffering because He cannot interfere with justice. In this view, God’s “punishment” is His withholding aid from us (but He is required to withhold it by eternal law, so isn’t really His doing, anyway).

  2. The other view is that God metes out punishment personally because He is required to do so by eternal laws. Although the wording of the scriptures seems more in harmony with this view, my personal experience tells me that it is much less common among Mormons.

-----

Phage, post #82, writes:

Except of course that I am quoting LDS doctrine from official sources to back up my arguments.

Actually, technically, you didn’t.

The very first line, above the title of the article you quoted---“What is the meaning of the Book of Mormon scriptures on eternal hell for the wicked?”:

quote:
Questions of general gospel interest answered for guidance, not as official statements of Church policy.

The disclaimer, written by Daniel Ludlow, attached to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

quote:
Those who have written and edited [the Encyclopedia of Mormonism] have only tried to explain their understanding of Church history, doctrines, and procedures; their statements and opinions remain their own. The Encyclopedia of Mormonism is a joint product of Brigham Young University and Macmillan Publishing Company, and its contents do not necessarily represent the official position of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
Daniel H. Ludlow

Your other sources (which were good, official sources) mentioned “punishment,” which I gave a good explanation for above.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phage0070, posted 07-17-2009 5:44 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Phage0070, posted 07-20-2009 7:09 AM Blue Jay has responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 90 of 153 (515594)
07-19-2009 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ICANT
07-18-2009 9:47 PM


Re: What is sin?
Hi, ICANT.

ICANT writes:

When I point my finger at my congregation I remind them I have 3 pointing back at me. Did I miss something somewhere?

ICANT, you're awesome.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ICANT, posted 07-18-2009 9:47 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
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