The Psychology Behind the Belief in Heaven and Hell

Not being a believer in both, I can see a sort of out clause. For one thing, if God, heaven and hell do happen to exist, then Christians are merely doing what is necessary to ensure they make it to the good option, rather than the bad. Most Christians I've been around will also be more than willing to help you do the same...sometimes whether you want them to or not. It's sort of on the same par with believing AIDS exists and taking precautions to prevent contracting it.As for believing a god who would make a hell is a "good" God, well I'm not to sure how to wriggle out of that one. Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles contains a book called "Memnoch The Devil" where it shows the Devil explaining how Heaven and Hell work. It's quite a bit different from the way most Christians portray it, and you have to consider the source (the devil, filtered through a vain vampire...) but if I were to suddenly believe in an afterlife with both a heaven and a hell, this would be the way I'd want it to be.The way it's described is Hell is merely the place people go who believe they aren't ready to accept paradise. They expereince the punishment and torment they think they deserve, and when they're ready, they are accepted into Heaven.

This type of reasoning seems akin to two people lost and walking through the forest. One decides to walk north, and ends up in a village where they have food, a place to sleep and the company of other people. The other person decides to walk south, and ends up falling into a pit and dying. Even though the second person didn't know the pit was there, the decision to walk into it was his and his alone. I can see that, but I have one issue:The villagers that the first person walked among were the ones that dug the pit, knowing that people would have to make the choice to walk north or south. They created the bad circumstances that the second person walked into when they didn't have to, and are still expecting to be considered "good." To me, the good option would be to let the second person just keep walking, rather than digging a pit for him to fall into. It seems like overkill, I guess.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean by doing wrong, not going to church or not believing, then you have a severe case of projection here. I don't feel guilty for not believing because I have been given no real reason to believe. I don't think it's wrong to not believe in something for which there is no evidence, and quite a bit of evidence the other way.If you mean people who actually do wrong, ie. robbing, murdering, abusing, etc, then you seem to imply that people who are good people will go to heaven whether they are Christian or not. If that's the case, then I guess you could have a rational belief in Hell and a good God who created it, though I would have to believe that what someone does in life is never bad enough to deserve an eternity of pain and suffering, but maybe that's just me.

Good movie!Though, if I had to pick an afterlife from a movie, "Defending Your Life" is to my mind, just about perfect. It's non-denominational and has a logical set-up that sort of combines all the major beliefs regarding death and an afterlife, including reincarnation, higher planes, and court-like judgements based on the life you've lived.

Ok, so everyone does bad things. I can agree with that. How, then, does one make it to heaven? If to do so, one must ask for forgiveness from God, then he is essentially condemming all unbelievers to Hell, merely because they don't believe. (All are evil, only believers will ask forgiveness from God, therefore, all nonbelievers will go to hell) So God doesn't believe in recycling? It still seems over the top to condemn someone for eternity for something they did during a life of, at most, 100 years. The punishment should fit the crime for the punishment to be just, otherwise it's capricious and unworthy of respect at all. Ironically, I think the exact same way, only in opposite. Only a fool would believe, in their heart, in a God...it just makes no sense.

So, what you're saying is that 90% of people will go to Heaven and the ones who won't are either psychopaths or schizophrenics. I guess that sounds good for me, but I have an issue with God punishing people with mental disorders...it's not their fault. I don't know of anyone, other than mentally impaired people, who think stealing is ok, murdering is just a good night out, and child molestation is something to do when bored. I know people have engaged in those activities, but pretty much all of them know it is wrong and either try to justify it or feel guilt. I was talking about the rubbish heap...what happens to the souls in Hell during this time of recycling? Are they just left there and forgotten about, or is Hell not actually eternal? I dare you to find anyone who doesn't want joy, love, wonder and happiness. There are people who feel so despondent that they don't think they will ever again feel those things while they live, but never have I found or heard of anyone who didn't desire those things. This seems to imply that no one goes to Hell. And this is where I get to the point where I can no longer call God good. He withdraws his love from the people who need it the most. You cannot say he has done everything in his power to help those who, apparently, want to live in a place full of hopelessness and fear/anger. It just stops making sense that someone with the powers that God has, and the implied wellspring of eternal love and patience is good for turning his back on those who are less than convinced of his existance. It seems to em that the only people who fit your criteria for Hell are the mentally impaired. Why would god punish people for something that isn't their fault?

I don't understand. How can you surrender to something you don't have any reason to believe exists. You seem back to saying you need to believe in god to go to heaven. I don't just rely on myself, I rely on my friends and family, and even my government and community, however, I'm going to place reliance on something I have no reason to believe exists. I'm not in rebellion, I'm not in denial, I'm in an evidentiary void, and thus do not have belief of reliance. Not always. I've known quite a few people who broke the law and did so knowing they were doing something wrong. I've seen it, I've even done it. I dom soemthing I know is wrong, but I do it because I want to do it...or even because I want to do something wrong. Most people go through a rebellious period in their teenage years and will often do things for the exact reason that they know they're doing wrong. Most of the time, in my experience, people wise up as they grow up and realize that doing something because it's wrong is not the best way to live. And as you said, everyone does these things to some extent. It's thinking like this that makes me so sad for my Christian friends. This sense of overriding guilt and self-loathing that seems to permeate most fundamentalist hearts is just so tragic. DO people do bad things? Yes. Does this taint them and make any future actions suspect and less worthy? Not in the least. What people should do is understand that everyone screws up at times, but if we can learn from those mistakes and do more good than harm, then we've lived a good life and should be commended. You're of the opinion that nothing can ever overcome even one bad action unless we give up and hope some invisible, unevidenced being will forgive us. You need to learn to forgive yourself, and if possible, seek forgiveness from those you have wronged, and stop hoping someone else will take care of your guilt for you. Again, you're stating, in a roundabout way, that anyone who doesn't believe in god is going to hell. I just can't see how someone who doesn't already believe in god can reach the position:found status, if to reach it, you have to submit to god. It's circular and illogical. Not hating yourself doesn't mean you love evil. I hat eevil, and recognize that on occassion I have done things I don't like. I have learned form those actions and have moved on as a stronger person, more willing to forgive others who have committed the same mistake as myself. If I fell into self-loathing to the point that only some supernatural being could save me, then I'd be lost for good.Again, I don't know anyone who loves evil. Some people are more susceptible to doing evil things, but again, I think this is more a product of brain chemistry and perhaps even mental problems than an actual choice in the matter. Show me someone who "wants evil" and you may have a point. The only people I can think of who would fall into that category are the very people who are least able to make the decision for themselves: the mentally ill. And doing this for eternity seems to be the worst thing a "loving" god could do. What a person who loves someone does who is engaging in bad behavior is force them to see it. That's why we have interventions and councelling. Turning your back and saying, "Oh well, if that's what he wants..." is the worst form of loving, it's a surrender and makes that person at least partially culpable for any further actions by the "evil" individual. It's a tacit approval of their actions, or a lazy indifference. It, itself, is an evil action.

Is this what you mean by surrendering? If so, then I would say most people feel regret for the bad things they've done. Again, that means we're almost all going to Heaven, Yay! Because, in my mind, you have to be aware you're in rebellion in order to surrender. It would be like some king showing up at my door saying, "You are asked to surrender your rebellion against the crown!"All I can do is say, "What rebellion? I wasn't even aware I was under a crown, let alone rebelling against it."I would then require proof of the king's claim, rather than just atking it on faith.So, how do I surrender to god if, not only am I unaware that I'm rebelling, I don't even think the thing to which I'm supposed to surrender even exists?

So, as long as you feel guilt, remose, or regret, you're "surrendering" and thus are able to go to heaven? I'm getting very confused, as again, this would imply that everyone short of psychopaths and achizophrenics (or others with mental illness) are able to go to heaven, and the only people being punished in hell are those who couldn't do anything about it anyway. Again, while I acknowledge that some people do bad things, they almost always realize they did wrong, even if they don't admit it to anyone else. So, I think you'd be very hard pressed to find someone who actually rejects goodness.

The only time someone engages in justification to themselves is when they know they've done wrong. You don't need to barter with the angel on your shoulder if the little devil doesn't speak up. People may not admit to anyone else that they've done wrong, they may give as many justifications as they can think of...but that just leads to Shakespeare's "The lady doth protest too much."Unless you know you're doing something wrong, you don't nother coming up with a justification for it, you just do it. When you have to convince yourself, then you're at least aware of the possibility you've done wrong. I've actually seen most people go too far the other way, they feel guilt and remorse for doing things that are actually good.Anyone who truly doesn't think like that would be a psychopath. Brain chemistry and historical environment have a huge effect on people's actions and feelings, and if the reason for a bad action or lack of regret is brain chemistry, then how can that be something to be punished? So, what you're saying is, people should feel guilty and bad about everything they've ever done for every minute of their lives? I don't know about you, but that sounds like the worst kind of life to live, and anyone that requires that kind of life is a sadist who should be stopped. Or, to put it the best way, they've felt bad, they've gained acceptance that they did wrong or tried to find recompense for it, and have moved on resolving to do better the next time. If people turn a bad choice into a learning experience and decide not to do something similar in the future, then I think they're completely justified in no longer feeling guilty about it unless they stop to think about it. Thinking themselves rotten is one of the worst things they could do. I'm truly saddened that that's the feeling you apparently have about yourself. I don't agree with about 99% of the things you post here, but I think you're a very worthwhile individual and would feel a sense of loss were you to cease. People who feel themselves rotten are clinically depressed and should seek help. People make mistakes, learning from them and moving on is the healthy thing to do; dwelling on them and sinking further and further into guilt until you consider yourself rotten is just about the least healthy thing you could do. It is for people like that that we have psychologists, mental health doctors and clinicians.For any god to be considered good, he would want us to learn from our mistakes, use that learning to make better choices in the future, maybe help teach others to make better choices, and then feel better and move on with your life. A god that wants you to feel so full of guilt and shame as to consider yourself without redeeming quality at all, again, is a sadist and should be stopped. I'd go so far as to call a being like that as close to my perception of Satan as makes no difference.Edited by Perdition, : No reason given.

The question here is, why do you think the thoughts you do?Are our thoughts and rememberances merely effects of proximate neurons firing, thus "charging" our thoughts so to speak, or are they consciously controlled?If they're consciously controlled, how exactly is that managed, since as far as we can tell, consciousness is the firing of neurons. It would seem that the firing of neurons would have to somehow selectively make other neurons fire counter to how they would fire if left to natural processes.Personally, I have to agree with Oni. Until we are shown something that breaks causality, I'm forced to accept free will as a, perhaps necessary, illusion.Edited by Perdition, : No reason given.