Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 13/65 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Hate-crime = Thought crime?
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2587
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 12 of 376 (537474)
11-28-2009 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Rrhain
11-28-2009 5:56 AM


Rrhain says:
When you commit a crime against someone specifically due to their attachment to a particular group, then the point of the crime is not simply to commit it against that individual but rather to terrorize all members of that group. It is not sufficient that the victim is a member of a group that is regularly terrorized because, as you will notice, the laws do not list subset but rather full categories: It mentions "race," not any particular race, for example, and crime happens to all groups. Instead, you must be able to show that the person committed the crime specifically because the target was a member of a group.
...and that is all that is needed to said about this.
Agreed. A hate crime attacks everyone in the group in addition to the victim and that is what the additional penalties are for.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Rrhain, posted 11-28-2009 5:56 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2587
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 276 of 376 (540177)
12-22-2009 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Hyroglyphx
12-22-2009 9:01 AM


Re: Motive Schmotive
Hyroglyphics opines:
That clearly being the case, what this really is about is showing solidarity to a community who has received past injustices -- so that society is now sure to pay for the past transgressions of our forefathers. It's an attempt to make political correctness a law by proxy, which completely undermines the premise of free speech.
Dude, it has already been thrown out with the bath water. Free speech is only okay if the ruling authorities do not mind. We are already living in a police state of sorts in the US. If you get arrested for disturbing the peace by carrying huge Communist signs and you have the right lawyer connections, you walk free. The authorities just want to see you play ball - cough up the legal dough.
As for making amends for the crimes of generations past, consider this colossally stupid analogy: a truck driver intent on murdering a pregnant woman eventually catches up to her on the highway and, after a long terrorizing chase, aided by the huge trailer he's hauling, forces her off the road into a canyon river. She is lucky and lives, but is still stuck down in the river. Now the police arrive & arrest the man. He gets handcuffed and rode off to custody. Shouldnt we also hope that they take the woman out of the river? At least before she delivers her child? The various minority groups are still, for the most part, stuck down in the river - and some would want to leave them there down on their own. Not only that, there are still more being driven off the road into that river, if they didnt have the misfortune of being born there. Now look: there's a white straight short-haired untattoed unpierced middle-aged christian upper middle class suit & tie male in the river. Notice how quickly he is rescued on average. Notice how rarely he is even driven off the road. Shouldnt we be trying to get everyone out of the river?
No one can reasonably argue that there are not good and noble intentions behind the law. I want exactly what you want, which is for all people regardless of race, gender, age, sexual orientation, etc to be safe from harm. But they are already protected.
No! they are not protected. That is the point! Various states with their legions of police and state officials and judiciary have not shown responsible action over the crimes stratified over those distinctions you mention. There are lots of well-entrenched despicable official, sanctioned behaviors still extant across this sad country. And they will continue and continue.
That is why a FEDERAL LAW is unfortunately needed here. This gives the power of the feds to come in and prosecute when the state fails to do so. And believe me, in the 60's (only 50 years ago, less than your average 1st degree murder sentence) those states in the south were being criminal. The Feds have to be the Parent to the disobedient Child. Imagine you telling your child to close the door and he laughs and runs off and eventually you get up an slam it shut yourself? It's unfortunate indeed.
And Emmitt Till's mother was never ever sure about even the FEDERAL level being on her side. The jews in the concentration camps were absolutely 100% certain that their FEDERAL level was failing them.
It's all about ending vicious bullshit by those in power.
It's all about backup.
I mean, consider how many times victims had to resort to getting the perpetrator convicted on violating their Civil Rights when the other statutes on the books were being ignored!
Now, for the reality...the Feds wont do it either unless they have to. No one of these authoritative bodies will ever do anything that doesnt further their own interests unless they have to. And, believe me, their interests right now certainly do not include Truth, Justice and the American Way.
So - on a certain level I can go along with the idea that this is one more Big Brother step, since any time we give Them a law, they can abuse it. But I also have to believe that, underneath all the crunching juggernaut machinery of this country, there are still enough numbers of good people to eventually win out. If there arent, then maybe it is time to move to Canada. Stamping out localized bigotries will go towards getting more numbers on the good side.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-22-2009 9:01 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2587
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 312 of 376 (540573)
12-26-2009 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by Hyroglyphx
12-25-2009 10:42 AM


Re: Motive Schmotive
Hyroglyphx notes:
I'll even change my offensive avatar for you.
LOL when i first saw your new one!
Well done!
- nate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-25-2009 10:42 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024