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Author Topic:   Is America a Christian Nation?
jar
Member
Posts: 29136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 136 of 206 (659664)
04-17-2012 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by jrchamblee
04-17-2012 9:44 PM


I assume you have some evidence of that and some indication of how even IF that were true, it would have anything to do with the topic?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by jrchamblee, posted 04-17-2012 9:44 PM jrchamblee has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 137 of 206 (659669)
04-17-2012 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by jrchamblee
04-17-2012 9:44 PM


If (and this is a pretty big leap given your lack of substantiating evidence) this is true...all it says is that GW got his advice from a christian guy. What's that you say? Most every white male during that time was a christian so saying he got advice from a christian guy would be like saying he had black slaves.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15946
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 138 of 206 (659670)
04-17-2012 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by jrchamblee
04-17-2012 9:44 PM


George Washington got all his advice from a christian man, a friend of his.that concerned the USA back then.There are letters that prove this.

All his advice from one man?

So what does that say about George Washington?

That he didn't make friends easily?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by jrchamblee, posted 04-17-2012 9:44 PM jrchamblee has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 174 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 139 of 206 (659672)
04-17-2012 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by jrchamblee
04-17-2012 9:44 PM


So what does that say about George Washington?

It says that a lot of people are more than willing to make up lies about George Washington to advance their own religious agenda.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2158
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 140 of 206 (659677)
04-18-2012 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by jrchamblee
04-17-2012 9:44 PM


Imaginary Friend?
Does this magical sole adviser have a name? Because without a name, the magical sole adviser may be imaginary.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
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Jzyehoshua
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 206 (663674)
05-26-2012 4:30 AM


William Penn
Whether America began a Christian nation is debatable, but what is not questionable is that it was based upon the first democracy in America, the Province of Pennsylvania founded in 1682 by William Penn, that was most definitely a Christian nation. Much of America's government was based on Penn's, which originated concepts like a 2-house elected assembly, a bill of rights with freedom of religion/speech/property, term limits, women's rights, and fair trial by jury.

I've written quite a bit about it at CreationWiki:

http://creationwiki.org/William_Penn#Pennsylvania

The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom by Thomas Jefferson and the Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments by James Madison also show the founders thought of religious freedom very differently from the Separation of Church and State concept used by progressives today. Both believed, per the Declaration of Independence, that inalienable rights and freedom of religion are the result of their being given by a Creator, and referenced a Creator frequently in legislation to prove this. They were never supportive of removing mention of God from government, or preventing Christian influence on government, but rather of preventing a single religious denomination/institution like Catholicism/Anglicanism from persecuting other denominations through government. I've written articles on these also:

http://creationwiki.org/...nia_statute_for_religious_freedom

http://creationwiki.org/...nce_against_religious_assessments


Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-26-2012 5:01 AM Jzyehoshua has responded
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15946
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(3)
Message 142 of 206 (663678)
05-26-2012 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Jzyehoshua
05-26-2012 4:30 AM


Madison And Jefferson
The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom by Thomas Jefferson and the Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments by James Madison also show the founders thought of religious freedom very differently from the Separation of Church and State concept used by progressives today.

Um ... except that they subscribed to and practically invented "the Separation of Church and State concept used by progressives today".

The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State. --- James Madison, letter to Robert Walsh, March, 2 1819. Letters and Other Writings of James Madison Fourth President of The United States in Four Volumes Published by the Order of Congress, J.B. Lippincott & Co., Philadelphia 1865, Volume III, pp 121-126.

I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. ---Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Danbury Baptists, 1802

Both believed, per the Declaration of Independence, that inalienable rights and freedom of religion are the result of their being given by a Creator ...

Yes, and they also believed in the separation of church and state.

Like many conservative Christians before you, your reasoning appears to contain a fundamental(ist) error. It goes something like this:

(1) Only irreligious people would want church-state separation and a secular government.
(2) The Founding Fathers were not irreligious people.
(3) Therefore, this is not what they wanted.

But premise 1 is simply false.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-26-2012 4:30 AM Jzyehoshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-26-2012 5:57 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Jzyehoshua
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 206 (663688)
05-26-2012 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Dr Adequate
05-26-2012 5:01 AM


Re: Madison And Jefferson
quote:
Um ... except that they subscribed to and practically invented "the Separation of Church and State concept used by progressives today".

Strongly disagreed. If you read Jefferson's Virginia Statute especially, you'll see he used wording that would cause progressives today to go into seizure. I mean, just look at how the document begins:

"An Act for establishing religious Freedom.

Whereas, Almighty God hath created the mind free;

That all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and therefore are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being Lord, both of body and mind yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do,

That the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavouring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time;

That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical;

That even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor, whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness, and is withdrawing from the Ministry those temporary rewards, which, proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct are an additional incitement to earnest and unremitting labours for the instruction of mankind;

That our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry"

That's not, needless to say, something you hear from a progressive trying to keep mention of God out of government. Like the Declaration of Independence, it references a Creator as the basis for inalienable rights consistent with the Bible. Rather than trying to limit religious expression in government, it seeks to protect it.

quote:
Yes, and they also believed in the separation of church and state.

Like many conservative Christians before you, your reasoning appears to contain a fundamental(ist) error. It goes something like this:

(1) Only irreligious people would want church-state separation and a secular government.
(2) The Founding Fathers were not irreligious people.
(3) Therefore, this is not what they wanted.

But premise 1 is simply false.


Not what I said. Rather, my reasoning is more like this:

(1) Progressives say we did not begin a Christian nation.
(2) This is clearly false per William Penn's 1682 government.

and

(1) Progressives say the founders intended to keep religion out of government, and that we should remove mention of God from government.
(2) This is clearly false since Jefferson's writing strongly invoked God and belief in God as the basis for religious freedom.
(3) Jefferson was not writing to stop religious expression in government since as he said, "our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry". Rather he was seeking to stop the abuse of institutions specifically, like Anglicanism, Catholicism, and arguably today's Evolutionary establishment, from "assum[ing] dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavouring to impose them on others".

Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-26-2012 5:01 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-26-2012 6:09 AM Jzyehoshua has responded
 Message 145 by RAZD, posted 05-26-2012 6:35 AM Jzyehoshua has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15946
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 144 of 206 (663692)
05-26-2012 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Jzyehoshua
05-26-2012 5:57 AM


Re: Madison And Jefferson
Strongly disagreed.

Uh ... you read the quotations, right?

Not what I said.

It does, however, appear to be what you're thinking, or why would you think that the religious sentiments of Madison and Jefferson had any relevance whatsoever to the question of whether they favored separation of Church and State?

Like the Declaration of Independence, it references a Creator as the basis for inalienable rights consistent with the Bible. Rather than trying to limit religious expression in government, it seeks to protect it.

Well, at first glance, and indeed second and third glance, that appears to be a lie so vast that it's in danger of undergoing gravitational collapse and turning into a black hole. Would you care to try to justify it or elaborate on it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-26-2012 5:57 AM Jzyehoshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-26-2012 6:40 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18767
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(4)
Message 145 of 206 (663703)
05-26-2012 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Jzyehoshua
05-26-2012 5:57 AM


religious freedom
Hi again Jzyehoshua

Just a quick note:

Like the Declaration of Independence, it references a Creator as the basis for inalienable rights consistent with ...

... deist beliefs of the time.

You seem to be cherry-picking out references to Christianity and then claiming that this is all that applies to the founding fathers opinions.

The founding fathers were well experienced with religious persecution, both in England and again here in the Colonies, that were due to having a state religion.

When you look at the whole picture you see that the nation was founded with the principle that each and every belief would be allowed with no persecution, including christian.

That does not make it a christian nation, but a nation that allows christians to believe their faith without persecution or second-class status, just as it allows jews, deists, native americans etc to believe their faiths without persecution or second-class status.

There were a lot of christians that campaigned to make it a state religion, and you can quote them till the cows come home. the fact remains that the government laid out in the constitution is secular, without specific reference to any religion, nor without any religious litmus test required for any office:

quote:
Article. VI.

Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.


Enjoy.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-26-2012 5:57 AM Jzyehoshua has not yet responded

  
Jzyehoshua
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 206 (663789)
05-26-2012 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Dr Adequate
05-26-2012 6:09 AM


Re: Madison And Jefferson
t does, however, appear to be what you're thinking, or why would you think that the religious sentiments of Madison and Jefferson had any relevance whatsoever to the question of whether they favored separation of Church and State?

We're not talking about their religious sentiments. We're talking about them enshrining in U.S. law the fact that a Creator is the basis for religious freedom. We're talking about how their concept of Separation of Church and State is completely opposite the concept of Separation of Church and State that Progressives today have.

Well, at first glance, and indeed second and third glance, that appears to be a lie so vast that it's in danger of undergoing gravitational collapse and turning into a black hole. Would you care to try to justify it or elaborate on it?

The Declaration of Independence states:

quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm

The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom states:

quote:
Whereas, Almighty God hath created the mind free;
That all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and therefore are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being Lord, both of body and mind yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do,

http://creationwiki.org/...nia_statute_for_religious_freedom

Seems pretty clear to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-26-2012 6:09 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-26-2012 6:52 PM Jzyehoshua has responded
 Message 148 by jar, posted 05-26-2012 6:53 PM Jzyehoshua has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15946
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 147 of 206 (663791)
05-26-2012 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Jzyehoshua
05-26-2012 6:40 PM


Re: Madison And Jefferson
We're not talking about their religious sentiments. We're talking about them enshrining in U.S. law the fact that a Creator is the basis for religious freedom.

They didn't. Nor is it a fact.

We're talking about how their concept of Separation of Church and State is completely opposite the concept of Separation of Church and State that Progressives today have.

It isn't.

What I mean by "total separation of the church from the state" is no different from what Madison meant by it. Indeed, if anything, I am more easy-going on the subject than Madison: for example, I have no objection to the provision of chaplains to the military.

The Declaration of Independence states:

I have never denied that the Founders possessed religious sentiments. I have indeed asserted it.

The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom states:

It does indeed. And your point was? How on earth does that support your claim that it seeks to protect religious expression in government?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-26-2012 6:40 PM Jzyehoshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-26-2012 8:06 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 148 of 206 (663792)
05-26-2012 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Jzyehoshua
05-26-2012 6:40 PM


Re: Madison And Jefferson
Please show the reference to Christianity in either document?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-26-2012 6:40 PM Jzyehoshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-26-2012 8:01 PM jar has responded

  
Jzyehoshua
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 206 (663804)
05-26-2012 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by jar
05-26-2012 6:53 PM


Re: Madison And Jefferson
Please show the reference to Christianity in either document?

The Virginia Statute speaks of "Almighty God, who being Lord of both mind and body". That's not well-fitted for religions apart from the Bible. But it's not explicit in regards to Christianity.

William Penn's government in 1682, America's first democracy, was explicitly Christian, however. It based marriage on the Bible and declared Sunday a day of rest for both citizens and the government. Much of what's considered American was actually based on Penn's government over a century before the U.S. Constitution.

http://creationwiki.org/Province_of_pennsylvania


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by jar, posted 05-26-2012 6:53 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by jar, posted 05-26-2012 8:09 PM Jzyehoshua has responded

  
Jzyehoshua
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 206 (663805)
05-26-2012 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Dr Adequate
05-26-2012 6:52 PM


Re: Madison And Jefferson
quote:
What I mean by "total separation of the church from the state" is no different from what Madison meant by it. Indeed, if anything, I am more easy-going on the subject than Madison: for example, I have no objection to the provision of chaplains to the military.

What you believe on Separation of Church and State I'm not sure. We may be in agreement. All I'm saying is the founders opposed restrictions on religious expression, including in U.S. politics, as evidenced by the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom.

It does indeed. And your point was? How on earth does that support your claim that it seeks to protect religious expression in government?

My point was that Jefferson, the same guy who created the term and concept of a "wall of separation" was at the same time writing (in U.S. Law mind you) about how Almighty God is Lord of both mind and body yet didn't coerce others into belief, and this is the basis for U.S. religious freedom.

Obviously if he wanted to stop Christians from presenting views on God in government, he wouldn't have used such religious language himself in referencing "Almighty God". His own document on religious freedom provides an example of what his thought process on religious freedom was like, and what should be permissible. Therefore, it should be alright for me to write a bill proclaiming Almighty God institutes X rights, and drawing logical conclusions as such, just as Jefferson did.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-26-2012 6:52 PM Dr Adequate has responded

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