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Author Topic:   Crop circles and intelligent design
Modulous
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Posts: 7429
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


(4)
Message 137 of 149 (702032)
06-29-2013 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Peter
06-28-2013 10:14 AM


Re: absurdum
Not as ridiculous as all that.

Just because I can demonstrate A way of doing something, does not mean that all instances of that 'something' were created in that way.

I never claimed otherwise. Really - after like a two year absence the best you could do was repeat this trope that has been refuted numerous times on this thread already?

Here is the debate as it stands:

I have:

Provided evidence that humans exist
Provided evidence they are capable of creating crop circles
Provided evidence they have the resources to go to crops and make crop circles.
Provided evidence that some humans have the psychological motivation to create crop circles
Provided evidence that some humans have created crop circles.
And shown that in every single instance where the crop circle creator's identity has been established - it was a human.

On the other hand you have

Provided ZERO evidence that aliens exist
ZERO evidence that they have the technological capacity to travel interstellar distances to other planets.
ZERO evidence they have the resources to spare to travel interstellar distances to other planets.
ZERO evidence (or any reasoning whatsoever) that these unevidenced beings would be sufficiently motivated to expend all those resources in order to make patterns in alien (to them) food crops.
ZERO evidence than any alien has ever created any crop circle on any planet.

Just to let you know in a debate that looks this one sided....it means that one person lost, and the other won. And in this case, you lost. And after two years of studying reasoning, thinking about crop circles and so on has lead you to the stunning idea that

YOU CAN'T RULE OUT THAT SOME CROP CIRCLES WEREN'T CREATED BY SUBTERRANEAN MUSHROOM PIRATES CONTROLLED BY THE JEWS THEREFORE YOU SHOULDN'T SAY IT'S BORED PRANKSTERS!!!!11

I couldn't have thought of a concession speech with more denial in it than that

The fingerprint thing is quite telling, since it IS possible to plant fingerprints in order to incriminate. So by themselves the fingerprints on the murder weapon are not sufficient evidence (in all cases).

I notice you provide no evidence that it is possible to 'plant' fingerprints in order to incriminate. Let's pretend it was.

Can you see the difference in saying 'it's possible that some crop circles were not created by humans' and 'aliens created some crop circles'?

Let's use fingerprints:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury - those fingerprints weren't created when oils from my client's fingers left a print upon the murder weapon as a result of direct hand contact. They were created by gelpite: a microrganism that lived a billion years ago in salt water at high pressures. No-one credible has ever seen one, but we can't rule out that these hypothetical entities might be responsible for creating the perfect copy of my client's fingerprints. I believe this is grounds for reasonable doubt. Thank you.

I'm guessing such a lawyer would be dismissed and mocked.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Peter, posted 06-28-2013 10:14 AM Peter has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Peter, posted 07-01-2013 5:42 AM Modulous has responded

    
Peter
Member (Idle past 1454 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 138 of 149 (702084)
07-01-2013 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Modulous
06-29-2013 8:52 AM


Re: absurdum
Two year absence:

Sorry had to go back to the home-world for crop circle making supplies

Evidence that humans exist: Existential arguments aside ... tick.
Evidence of crop circle making capability: ... tick, but with reservation.
Evidence of resource availability: ... tick.
Evidence of pschological motivation: ... tick, but what IS that motivation?
Evidence that some H have created CC's: ... tick.
All known creators of CC's be H: ... tick.

Comments:

The above, does indeed, provide a body of evidence to show that some CC's are created by humans.

It cannot be used to project that ALL CC's are, no matter how reasonable that proposition may sound.

So far as the known H-made CC's go there is significant suggestion that the known H-made CC's differ in many observable ways from the unknown-made CC's. That alone suggests that there are other ways to make CC's than those provided by the known HCCM's.

The motivation for the creation of HCC's appears to be a desire to proove that CC's are a prank perpetrated by H's on other H's.
This requires that CC's appeared prior to this where the maker is unknown.

Alien existence:
There are the statistical arguments ... possible to dispute by changing the assumptions made, but with the expanding number of earth-like planets being identified in this galaxy alone, it does not seem reasonable that H's are the only (nominally) intelligent life.

Travel capabilities:
If it is possible to develop technologies capable of interstellar travel, then, in a near infinite universe, someone probably has. Can't proove it one way or the other, despite all the UFO sightings and abduction accounts (lot of weirdos out here ).

Alien Motivation:
Doesn't the above phrase sum up a H's capability for figuring out the motivation?

How does a rat view the mazes that they are put into by H experimentors?

How does the biological subject of ANY experiment understand the motivations of the experimentor?

Lack of apparent motivation is NOT negative evidence ... it's an open question.

Evidence of any Alien CCMing:
Cyclic reasoning if that's the proposal being investigated, surely?

Fingerprints:

There are several methods of planting fingerprints, from creating fingertip moulds to extracting them from rubber gloves. The point of mentioning it was to refute the analogy being made.

Lawyers:

Have you heard some of the arguments that come out with?

And you think I'm erratic and non-sensical


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Modulous, posted 06-29-2013 8:52 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Percy, posted 07-01-2013 6:14 AM Peter has not yet responded
 Message 143 by Panda, posted 07-01-2013 10:03 AM Peter has not yet responded
 Message 145 by Modulous, posted 07-01-2013 1:29 PM Peter has not yet responded

    
Peter
Member (Idle past 1454 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 139 of 149 (702085)
07-01-2013 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Straggler
06-28-2013 12:53 PM


Re: ALL Conceivable Causes
Last Thursdayism:
Cannot be refuted ... unless we can find conclusive evidence that there is no godly person ... which I think we can't.

Falsifying 'All CC's are created by H's':

Find features in unknown-origin CC's that diverge from those of known-origin CC's.

Which there appear to be several of -- admittedly according to people who already subscribe to a 'something else is doing it' opinion.

Only known source:

It's based upon the ability of H's to replicate CC's. That's not the same thing at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Straggler, posted 06-28-2013 12:53 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Straggler, posted 07-01-2013 11:13 AM Peter has not yet responded

    
Peter
Member (Idle past 1454 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 140 of 149 (702086)
07-01-2013 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Dr Adequate
06-29-2013 3:46 AM


Re: ALL Conceivable Causes
LAck of evidence, and all that ....

The proposal that all CC's are made by H's is more to do with the fear that the concept that anything else exists and is more advanced than H's.

Reminds me of the cricket war robots ....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-29-2013 3:46 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
Peter
Member (Idle past 1454 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 141 of 149 (702087)
07-01-2013 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by ringo
06-28-2013 1:05 PM


Re: absurdum
Not an approriate analogy.

It's more like saying that because I can write a simple set of computerised rules that can cause a spider-web design to be created, that spiders must use the exact same rule-based mechanism to do what they do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 06-28-2013 1:05 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by ringo, posted 07-02-2013 12:11 PM Peter has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15916
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 142 of 149 (702088)
07-01-2013 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Peter
07-01-2013 5:42 AM


Re: absurdum
Peter writes:

Lack of apparent motivation is NOT negative evidence ... it's an open question.

In the sense that you're using the term, everything's an open question. And in that sense, I'm sure you've convinced everyone here. I'm sure everyone will concede that humans creating crop circles instead of aliens remains as much an open question as the Earth being spherical rather than flat.

Your goal shouldn't be to remain implacable and immovable in your position, which by the way you've achieved, but that is a simple achievement accomplished by many every day. Your goal should be to make your position look less than ridiculous so so as to persuade others, for if your goal isn't to persuade, than I can only guess that it must be to look ridiculous, which you've also achieved.

In other words, like Modulous, I'm casting about for ways to get you to acknowledge reality. I'm taking a different tack, of course, because the problem doesn't seem to be in the facts but more in the nature of self delusion. Somehow we have to snap you out of it.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Peter, posted 07-01-2013 5:42 AM Peter has not yet responded

    
Panda
Member (Idle past 1244 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 143 of 149 (702094)
07-01-2013 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Peter
07-01-2013 5:42 AM


Re: absurdum
I once had my bicycle stolen.

There is no evidence that aliens took it (or that they even exist) - but I can't rule them out.
There is no evidence that unicorns took it (or that they even exist) - but I can't rule them out.
There is no evidence that super-powered monkeys took it (or that they even exist) - but I can't rule them out.
There is no evidence that the flying spaghetti monster took it (or that he even exists) - but I can't rule him out.
There is no evidence that Santa Claus took it (or that he even exists) - but I can't rule him out.
There is no evidence that the tooth-fairy took it (or that she even exists) - but I can't rule her out.
There is no evidence that the Easter bunny took it (or that he even exists) - but I can't rule him out.

No wonder the police had trouble tracking down the culprit...my bike could have been stolen by almost anything and anyone!!


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Peter, posted 07-01-2013 5:42 AM Peter has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 144 of 149 (702097)
07-01-2013 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Peter
07-01-2013 5:51 AM


Re: ALL Conceivable Causes
Straggler writes:

As a point of comparison could you tell me whether you think it is justifiable to conclude evolution over Last Thursdayism on the basis of positive evidence?

Peter writes:

No it's not. The support for evolution is a lack of negative evidence/refutation.

Straggler writes:

But there is equally a lack of negative evidence/refutation of Last Thursdayism. So according to your line of reasoning the two proposals are equally valid aren't they? If not why not? Be specific.

Peter writes:

Last Thursdayism: Cannot be refuted ... unless we can find conclusive evidence that there is no godly person ... which I think we can't.

So there is a "lack of negative evidence/refutation" for both Last Thursdayism and evolution. How do you suggest we establish which of the two is more likely to be correct?

Peter writes:

Falsifying 'All CC's are created by H's': Find features in unknown-origin CC's that diverge from those of known-origin CC's.

Such as?

Peter writes:

Which there appear to be several of -- admittedly according to people who already subscribe to a 'something else is doing it' opinion.

According to people wedded to the notion that aliens are creating crop circles some crop circles are created by aliens. It appears the circles in crops are not the only ones on display.....

Peter writes:

Only known source: It's based upon the ability of H's to replicate CC's. That's not the same thing at all.

The only known source is the only known source. If you know of an established source of crop circles that is non-human now is the time to tell us......?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Peter, posted 07-01-2013 5:51 AM Peter has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7429
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 145 of 149 (702106)
07-01-2013 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Peter
07-01-2013 5:42 AM


motivations and reasoning
The above, does indeed, provide a body of evidence to show that some CC's are created by humans.

It cannot be used to project that ALL CC's are, no matter how reasonable that proposition may sound.

I'm not making that claim, you realize that, right? I'm claiming that in any given case, given what we know about crop circles and humans - humans are probably the responsible party for said crop circle. Of course, as with any epistemological claim - there is a degree of tentativity about the conclusion.

I will also add that it is my position that it is much more likely that it was unicorns than aliens. At least we have evidence for terrestrial equiforms and we don't need to postulate technology beyond our ken to get to unicorns near earth crops.

If I see an oil painting, despite the fact that I can't know that all oil paintings are human creations - I think it is perfectly reasonable to hold the belief that it is a human creation until compelling evidence to believe otherwise comes about. It's basically Bayesian reasoning. The hypothesis that aliens did it is so vanishingly unlikely so as to be unworthy of any serious consideration. That is not the same as saying 'aliens definitely have never created a crop circle', the position you seem to be trying to argue against.

We could postulate unknown entities from unknown places with unknown technology and unknown motivations are responsible for the Mona Lisa or the Woman of Willendorf etc., if we wanted. But why would we?

So far as the known H-made CC's go there is significant suggestion that the known H-made CC's differ in many observable ways from the unknown-made CC's.

I want more than an unspecified and unsourced 'significant suggestion'. I want sourced evidence, please. Debates don't advance on innuendo, after all.

You confirm that there is no evidence for aliens (just arguments), you provide no evidence that interstellar travel is (practically) possible only that if it is possible it must have been discovered (though no evidence is provided, only an appeal to infinity), and no evidence that suggests that interstellar travel has been discovered by any species close enough to us to bother making the journey, AND that by sheer coincidence it happened at an opportune time for their to be civilisation here when they arrive (for the vast majority of earth's history there was no such thing).

You also acknowledge that you can think of no motivation for expending the resources to travel however many light years in order to make patterns in alien crops. You say this isn't a problem, but obviously it is.

You might as well say that Julius Caesar might have assassinated JFK. He could have developed a method of travelling forwards in time, after all. And why wonder why he might have used this technology to kill a President of a country that had not been formed on a continent that his peers were all ignorant of? Maybe the gods told him to, and who can know the motivations of the gods? If gods are possible, and the universe is infinite...

Evidence of any Alien CCMing:
Cyclic reasoning if that's the proposal being investigated, surely?

No. Providing evidence for the claim that aliens make crop circles is not circular reasoning in a debate about whether aliens make crop circles.

There are several methods of planting fingerprints, from creating fingertip moulds to extracting them from rubber gloves. The point of mentioning it was to refute the analogy being made.

I see you didn't discuss my refutation of your refutation which followed what you are responding to here so there doesn't seem any point in me responding further.

Have you heard some of the arguments that come out with?

And you think I'm erratic and non-sensical

I deal with arguments made by solicitors every day in civil cases. Though the burden of evidence is considerably lower than in criminal cases. None of them have ever claimed that their client isn't to blame on the grounds of some unevidenced entity performing feats beyond human technology on matters of utter insignificance with no postulated motivation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Peter, posted 07-01-2013 5:42 AM Peter has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by AZPaul3, posted 07-02-2013 1:51 AM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


(2)
Message 146 of 149 (702173)
07-02-2013 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Modulous
07-01-2013 1:29 PM


Re: motivations and reasoning
You also acknowledge that you can think of no motivation for expending the resources to travel however many light years in order to make patterns in alien crops. You say this isn't a problem, but obviously it is.

Do not dis the power of the Artist's Muse.

The entire alien history and a major portion of their society's wealth culminated in the production of the works to satisfy the Muse.

Right now our alien Warhol is showing the 3-d renderings of its work done in that startling new medium, Terran Domestic Grain Fields.

The whole art world is reeling with amazement at such beauty.

"Well worth the million year effort!" - Schreel Puunmenshsal, Art Critic, Magrathean Sun-Times.

"If we had another society to bankrupt we should do more of this!" Nmjdfkspwr Frlhytrrcb, Professor, School of Art, MaxiMagalon University.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by ProtoTypical, posted 07-02-2013 9:19 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1753
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 147 of 149 (702188)
07-02-2013 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by AZPaul3
07-02-2013 1:51 AM


Re: motivations and reasoning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by AZPaul3, posted 07-02-2013 1:51 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-02-2013 10:23 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 148 of 149 (702191)
07-02-2013 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by ProtoTypical
07-02-2013 9:19 AM


Re: motivations and reasoning
Seems plausible...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by ProtoTypical, posted 07-02-2013 9:19 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 149 of 149 (702197)
07-02-2013 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Peter
07-01-2013 5:54 AM


Re: absurdum
Peter writes:

It's more like saying that because I can write a simple set of computerised rules that can cause a spider-web design to be created, that spiders must use the exact same rule-based mechanism to do what they do.


Actually, it's more like saying that:
  1. IF humans could MAKE a spiderweb, and
  2. IF we had no evidence that spiders exist,
Then we could conclude that spider webs are made by humans.

The question is: Who do we KNOW that can make spiderwebs or crop circles? We know that spiders can make spiderwebs so we don't need to look for another cause. Only if we KNEW that humans could make spiderwebs would they be viable candidates for the source of any spiderweb.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Peter, posted 07-01-2013 5:54 AM Peter has not yet responded

  
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