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Author | Topic: Articulating In The Debates; The Proper And The Improper. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:As a former US Marine, I can tell you that the "f" word does not trip off my tongue (or my keyboard). It did not trip off my late father's tongue or my two uncles either. They were all Marines in the mid 50's. I've had relatives in every branch of the service. When the family gathers together, I don't hear profanity. I can also tell you that the word does not trip off a Marine's tongue with no regard to who they are talking to or the company surrounding them. They adjust to fit the "audience". My late Ex-husband, who was also a Marine for over 15 years, was not adverse to using profanity; but he adjusted to the people around him. In mixed company or around children he didn't use it, when he was with his buddies playing sports or at the Enlisted Club drinking beers he used it. He was also a writer and he didn't use it in his general writing. In my day, DI's were not allowed to use profane language in recruit training (still aren't today) and I didn't hear any while I was at Parris Island. If the men and women in the armed services who have risked life and limb in defense of our nation and its freedoms can understand that profanity is not acceptable in all situations and can adjust accordingly, then I'm sure you can too.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Wow, you really missed the point. The common courtesy to not speak profanity in social situations or on a public forum does not make one a shrinking violet. Asking one to refrain from profanity in a public forum does not make one a shrinking violet. Profanity doesn't make one strong or brave. I've seen documentaries. I didn't say they never used profanity. I said that military people can and do adjust to the situation. There are over 2 million people in our military and my guess is that you haven't seen every single one of them in those documentaries (no I haven't either). Buz and I have given you examples that show that not all military people use profanity as your statement implies. I've given you examples of Marines who adjust their use of profanity to the audience.
quote:See they adjusted according to their audience. You use our honorable men and women of the service to support your use of profanity with no regard for the listener, but miss the point that our military personnel do have self control when it comes to profanity and they can and do adjust to their audience.
quote: Just because something is allowed, doesn't mean it should be done. Self control is an admirable quality. Is it so unreasonable to adjust if someone asks that profanity not be used when addressing their posts? Reserve your profanity for your like minded "buddies" on EvC. Edited by purpledawn, : Typo
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Yes, profanity was a staple of the Marine Drill Instructors as well as rough physical treatment. In the mid 70's, the Marine Corps banned corporal punishment in boot camp after an apparently retarded recruit died during the pugil stick practice.
By the time I enlisted in 1978 recruits could not be physically abused by DI's. Not sure if the men could still be verbally abusive or not, but they aren't allowed to now. Recruit training for men and women in the Marine Corps is separate. Profanity wasn't allowed in the training of women marines.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
This goes to clear communication and understanding since the "f" word is just a word, it should be easy to understand when used.
Last Christmas Eve in the Faith and Belief Forum you started a thread to remind Christians they were celebrating a pagan holiday. Since it IS Christmas time...... I found this little gem of yours in Message 10.
It just seems a bit morbid that jesus' life means fuck all and his death is revered. It would seem to me then, that it makes anything he did in life mean fuck all too, yes? All that is important is that he died. This seems to be a favorite usage of yours. What does it mean?
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Words carry meaning and express feelings, intentions, etc. They aren't all equal or equally benign. Profanity is more visceral and usually carries emotions of frustration and anger. (I've already commented that presentation and audience also makes a difference) The person reading or hearing these words feel those emotions. That is what makes some uncomfortable with the usage. Not the word itself. It is the anger being projected or perceived. When anger is projected, people tend to respond in like manner. There's a reason that profanity is called strong language. This is a debate board and Percy, our host, provided a quote from the Encylopedia Brittanica under the Forum Guidelines.
Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach. A person using profanity is not emotionally uncommitted or sufficiently detached and is not maintaining a cool academic approach to the discussion. IMO, Percy has set an example of how he would like to see debates argued. If you search, you will see that Percy doesn't use the "f" word. While he doesn't want Admins to deal with censoring, he does have standards and I feel he also leads by example. Here is an good explanation he provided in 2005.
The absence from the Forum Guidelines of anything about profanity is on purpose. A Supreme Court justice once said that though he couldn't define obscene, he knew it when he saw it, but EvC Forum does not subscribe to this view. Opinions about obscenity are subjective, and moderators here are busy enough without wasting time trying to protect the sensibilities of the easily offended. But EvC Forum strongly frowns on making debates personal. In Message 23 Dan Carroll writes in reply to you, "So basically, the state does not have the ability to fuck over a subset of the population, no matter what the group consensus is." In my judgement that is fine. If he had instead attacked you personally and said, "You're a complete fuck-wad for not understanding group consensus issues," that would be another matter entirely. Message 24 So your comment in Message 45 shows that you don't understand what a personal attack is in this forum.
Hooah212002 writes: Funny thing about that, Buz. You will notice my posts lack insight into your personal life. Any "personal" attacks I make are on that of your avatar. Never do I make any comment about you the person. That's low even for a scumbag such as yourself. The avatar isn't participating in the discussion. People are participating in the discussion. If you call Buz a scumbag, you are calling the man behind the name a scumbag; not the avatar. I feel profanity is unnecessary in the regular debate forums.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I would have understood "jack shit". In the main debate forums, (Not Coffee House or Free for All), what is the point of adding the stronger and potentially offensive slang for the word? "Jack shit" is common in my neck of the woods, but I wouldn't use it in a debate. Since you said emphatic, it seems the choice is due to adding more negative emotion to the response. This takes us away from being detached. When a person is speaking we can usually tell the level of emotion by their presentation. Unfortunately in a written forum we lose that added aspect of the discussion. More than likely, a reader will perceive a level of emotion they have experienced by others speaking the word. If one's experience with the "f" word has always been negative or extreme anger, that may be what they perceive. Since the nature of a debate is to disagree, IMO, the added emotion of profanity just fans the flames and escalates the conflict. I think it makes it more personal, again depending on how the word is used.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:And the difference is what concerning profanity? quote:Knowing that there are no rules at EvC concerning the use of profanity except when used to insult an individual, why do you stoop to insulting me by calling my actions childish and imply I can't handle the sight of profanity? One member has simply said that he prefers people didn't use profanity. There's nothing childish about that. It isn't childish to be polite or to ask someone to be polite. I've acknowledged that profanity is used in many different ways and not all are offensive or intended as such. Just because I don't use the "f" word doesn't mean I don't use profanity when the occasion arises. Just because I choose not to use profanity at EvC, doesn't mean I don't use profanity when the occasion arises. That goes back to the whole adjust to the audience thing I was talking about. As I said before, using profanity doesn't make one strong and choosing not to use it doesn't make one childish or weak.
quote:No one has demanded anything, that I know of anyway. This thread is merely about discussing things that get in the way of quality debate and profanity, depending on how it is used, does tend to get in the way. When people don't wish to comply with a personal request, the requester just has to decide which is more important. It's easiest to just consider the source, move on, and address only the portions of the post that are on topic.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Now if you had paid attention to the rest that quote, you wouldn't have wasted the words. PurpleDawn writes: Profanity is more visceral and usually carries emotions of frustration and anger. (I've already commented that presentation and audience also makes a difference) I also said: It is the anger being projected or perceived. When talking with someone face to face, we can easily tell when they are conveying anger and when they aren't. In a written forum, it is more difficult and as you noticed there can also be a difference in cultural usage. As I said to crashfrog, just because I choose not to use the "f" word or to use profanity in my writings on EvC, don't assume that I don't use profanity in various forms in the real world.
quote:That explains a lot. I think that is also one problem with some people and the internet, they forget that people are behind the internet. They feel no need for common courtesy because they don't see a person with feelings, they see an avatar or a machine. That is a shame, but now you know the difference and hopefully you will adjust and not insult the avatars in any way, shape, or form at EvC. I guess that's why crash thinks the internet is different than a public forum. Now in a debate one can argue any side of the debate they want whether they believe it or not. That's why I find it fascinating that you and crash assume I personally (in the real world) have issues with seeing profanity. That's also why we shouldn't carry issues from one thread to another. A member can always take a different stance. As Ringo said in Message 94:This isn't a fantasy role-playing game; it's a (fairly) serious discussion board.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I know, but you don't make it personal or think I'm childish because I ask practical or direct questions. quote:Unfortunately sometimes we have to decipher slang as well. Thanks for the info.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Really, you can't go back and read what I wrote and actually decide if you misunderstood? It's all right there in black and white. What sentences made you feel that I perceived all your "f" words as anger? We are talking about communication here, why didn't you understand what I wrote?
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Where do I mention my personal perception of all your uses of the "f" word? I was talking to bluegenes about the slang phrase "f all". I made no judgment on your usage of it.
PurpleDawn writes: Since you said emphatic, it seems the choice is due to adding more negative emotion to the response. This takes us away from being detached. When a person is speaking we can usually tell the level of emotion by their presentation. Unfortunately in a written forum we lose that added aspect of the discussion. More than likely, a reader will perceive a level of emotion they have experienced by others speaking the word. If one's experience with the "f" word has always been negative or extreme anger, that may be what they perceive. Since the nature of a debate is to disagree, IMO, the added emotion of profanity just fans the flames and escalates the conflict. I think it makes it more personal, again depending on how the word is used. I'm just talking about profanity in general and how it can cause problems in a debate, depending on how it is used. (I keep typing that, but you don't seem to understand it.) So why use the profane slang that some may not understand as opposed to the more neutral word?What does it add to your statement? quote:I'm not making reasons why one should not use profanity. I'm showing why profanity can be a hindrance to debate and understanding, depending on how it is used. My position is that people do adjust or censor themselves when in mixed company. I don't consider it unreasonable for someone to ask that profanity not be used in posts addressing them. If the person using profanity does not wish to oblige the person's request, then the requester has to decide their if they wish to continue discussion with that person. But it isn't unreasonable or childish to ask. quote:I'm not the thread or the originator of the thread. Pay attention to what I write and what I am arguing. Don't assume it's about you unless I say it is. quote:But you didn't understand. You jumped to wrong conclusions.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Good non answer. quote:I didn't say that or imply that. I said he had a right to ask. It is your choice whether you comply or not. As I said in the post: When people don't wish to comply with a personal request, the requester just has to decide which is more important. It's easiest to just consider the source, move on, and address only the portions of the post that are on topic. quote:Except that I didn't. Please show me where I insisted that my preferences are the only ones that matter. ABE: This is a debate board. The point is to pick a side and defend/support it. If presenting or defending my position as "correct" is childish, then all of EvC is acting childish. Edited by purpledawn, : ABE
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
I thought about the difference of profanity in written form vs verbal.
Hearing profanity is not speaking profanity, but when profanity is written is forces the reader to "speak" the word in their mind. Frako used the old symbol version of profanity in an off topic post.
What the %&$# #$%" you F#$%&%$# brainless, hairless monkeys When I read that, I don't "speak" profanity in my mind, I just "say" bleep bleep. Now someone who chooses to speak profanity may fill in the blanks themselves. This may not ring true for all, but it was an interesting thought. Bottom line, the one doesn't wish to read profanity needs to decide if they will continue to read posts by members prone to profanity.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Here are two of your posts. One uses the words "means nothing" and the other uses the "f-all" which you have agreed is the same as means "nothing".
The first one is interesting because your opponent didn't know what the "f-all" meant just as I didn't and English is my first and only language. This obviously created a communication problem. You had to explain with more force by "yelling" in Message 147. As your opponent put it, he doesn't speak potty mouth.
Hooah212002 writes: You should know very well (since you are such a seasoned public debater in the evo-creo arena) that evolution has fuck all to do with origins. Message 129 What is also interesting about the above post is that even Admin stated in a message to your opponent that you were stating in the strongest terms possible.
Admin writes: Hooah was stating in the strongest terms possible that evolution has nothing to do with origins, yet you concluded he was stating the opposite. Message 152 Slang kinda got in the way of communication. Here is the second post.
Hooah212002 writes: "It looks designed" means nothing because guess what? It doesn't look designed to me. Message 213 So why the switch in vocabulary? Why didn't you use the "f-all" slang in the second post?
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Nope. As I stated in Message 91, "jack shit" is the more common expression in my area and the people I encounter, but overall I don't encounter that much profanity in my daily life. I see more here at EvC than I hear in my daily life. I assumed it meant "nothing" or something to that effect by the usage in the sentence and from what I know about Hooah's previous thoughts concerning the Bible, but that was only an assumption. If I'm going to comment on it, I wanted to know what he meant by it. I don't participate on the science side except for A&I and the people prone to profanity aren't usually my opponents on the religious side. As an Admin, I scan for inflammatory tones between members and then look for the source of the inflammation. I can usually tell whether the strong language is aimed at the person as opposed to the usage I've quoted. I don't have to know what it means to see that the profanity itself wasn't aimed at the opponent. Profanity isn't necessarily a staple in everyone's life.
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