Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 121 (8782 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-22-2017 1:19 AM
85 online now:
PaulK (1 member, 84 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: evilsorcerer1
Post Volume:
Total: 816,689 Year: 21,295/21,208 Month: 1,728/2,326 Week: 183/881 Day: 8/97 Hour: 2/6

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
23456
...
17NextFF
Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 1 of 253 (593671)
11-28-2010 1:16 PM


In Message 83 of the thread Deconversion experiences ICDESIGN makes the claim that this is a prophecy fulfilled by Jesus.

quote:
ICDESIGN writes:

bluescat48 writes:

You make the statement about fulfilled prophesies, therefore it is up to you to back them up with evidence.

......here are just a few...

Old Testament Prophecy // New Testament Fulfillment

Isaiah 52: 13&14 // John 19:1-3
Micah 5:2 // Matthew 2:1
Isaiah 7:14 // Matthew 1: 18-21
Daniel 9:25 // Galatians 4:4
Genesis 49:10 // Luke 3:23-38
Zechariah 9:9 // Matthew 21 1-4


I'd like for us to step through the examples in order to see if any actually can be supported.

Here is the first example given.

quote:
Isaiah 52:13-14 (New International Version, 2010)

The Suffering and Glory of the Servant
13 See, my servant will act wisely[1];
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him[2]
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness

Footnotes:

1. Isaiah 52:13 Or will prosper
2. Isaiah 52:14 Hebrew you


The first question must be how those two lines relate to the context. So here is Isaiah 52 in full.

quote:
Isaiah 52 (New International Version, 2010)

Isaiah 52

1 Awake, awake, Zion,
clothe yourself with strength!
Put on your garments of splendor,
Jerusalem, the holy city.
The uncircumcised and defiled
will not enter you again.
2 Shake off your dust;
rise up, sit enthroned, Jerusalem.
Free yourself from the chains on your neck,
Daughter Zion, now a captive.

3 For this is what the LORD says:

You were sold for nothing,
and without money you will be redeemed.

4 For this is what the Sovereign LORD says:

At first my people went down to Egypt to live;
lately, Assyria has oppressed them.

5 And now what do I have here? declares the LORD.

For my people have been taken away for nothing,
and those who rule them mock,
declares the LORD.
And all day long
my name is constantly blasphemed.
6 Therefore my people will know my name;
therefore in that day they will know
that it is I who foretold it.
Yes, it is I.

7 How beautiful on the mountains
are the feet of those who bring good news,
who proclaim peace,
who bring good tidings,
who proclaim salvation,
who say to Zion,
Your God reigns!
8 Listen! Your watchmen lift up their voices;
together they shout for joy.
When the LORD returns to Zion,
they will see it with their own eyes.
9 Burst into songs of joy together,
you ruins of Jerusalem,
for the LORD has comforted his people,
he has redeemed Jerusalem.
10 The LORD will lay bare his holy arm
in the sight of all the nations,
and all the ends of the earth will see
the salvation of our God.

11 Depart, depart, go out from there!
Touch no unclean thing!
Come out from it and be pure,
you who carry the articles of the LORDs house.
12 But you will not leave in haste
or go in flight;
for the LORD will go before you,
the God of Israel will be your rear guard.

The Suffering and Glory of the Servant

13 See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness
15 so he will sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.


As you can see, What Isaiah is talking about is Jerusalem, and his audience is Judah, and it is the subject of Judah's future that is the big question.

The period was when Judah sided with Assyria and Syria in their conquest of Israel and Samaria and acted as an ally and almost vassal state. Isaiah was speaking encouraging Judah to change allegiance and oppose Assyria by an alliance with Egypt.

So that is the setting.

Next, look to see if there is anything in the two verses that is really unique and so would be supported by Jesus or imply that Isaiah was even thinking of Jesus?

Well, not that I can see.

Let's look at ICDESIGN's claimed support of fulfillment?

quote:
John 19:1-3 (New International Version, 2010)

John 19

Jesus Sentenced to Be Crucified

1 Then Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged. 2 The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe 3 and went up to him again and again, saying, Hail, king of the Jews! And they slapped him in the face.


I certainly don't see support there for a suffering servant acting wisely, or being lifted up, or exalted, or being so disfigured that he was not recognizable as human.

So, unless someone can provide better support than ICDESIGN did I would have to say that this prophecy is not even about Jesus and if it was, it was not fulfilled.

Bible A&E please

Edited by jar, : fix subtitle

Edited by jar, : change title


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPD, posted 11-29-2010 2:45 AM jar has responded
 Message 115 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 11:25 AM jar has responded
 Message 144 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 12:29 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 253 (593750)
11-29-2010 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
11-28-2010 1:16 PM


Better Title
If you want to "step through" all his examples, I think you need a more all encompassing title. Other than that, I have no problem promoting this topic.

Thanks
AdminPD


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 11-28-2010 1:16 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 10:00 AM AdminPD has not yet responded
 Message 113 by Sid Williams, posted 03-29-2012 10:05 PM AdminPD has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 3 of 253 (593767)
11-29-2010 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPD
11-29-2010 2:45 AM


Re: Better Title
How bout that?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminPD, posted 11-29-2010 2:45 AM AdminPD has not yet responded

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 4 of 253 (593777)
11-29-2010 11:35 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 5 of 253 (593784)
11-29-2010 1:02 PM


Micah 5:2
The next claimed prophecy is Micah 5:2.

quote:
Micah 5:2 (New International Version, 2010)

2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans[1] of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.

Footnotes:

1. Micah 5:2 Or rulers


Again, if we look at the quote mined part in context, we can see that Micah is writing to an audience, the same audience as in the first example, the people of Judah during the time of Assyrian expansion.

quote:
Micah 5 (New International Version, 2010)

Micah 5
A Promised Ruler From Bethlehem
1 Marshal your troops now, city of troops,
for a siege is laid against us.
They will strike Israels ruler
on the cheek with a rod.

2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.

3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor bears a son,
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.

4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the LORD,
in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.

5 And he will be our peace
when the Assyrians invade our land
and march through our fortresses.
We will raise against them seven shepherds,
even eight commanders,

6 who will rule the land of Assyria with the sword,
the land of Nimrod with drawn sword.
He will deliver us from the Assyrians
when they invade our land
and march across our borders.

7 The remnant of Jacob will be
in the midst of many peoples
like dew from the LORD,
like showers on the grass,
which do not wait for anyone
or depend on man.

8 The remnant of Jacob will be among the nations,
in the midst of many peoples,
like a lion among the beasts of the forest,
like a young lion among flocks of sheep,
which mauls and mangles as it goes,
and no one can rescue.

9 Your hand will be lifted up in triumph over your enemies,
and all your foes will be destroyed.

10 In that day, declares the LORD,
I will destroy your horses from among you
and demolish your chariots.

11 I will destroy the cities of your land
and tear down all your strongholds.

12 I will destroy your witchcraft
and you will no longer cast spells.

13 I will destroy your idols
and your sacred stones from among you;
you will no longer bow down
to the work of your hands.

14 I will uproot from among you your Asherah poles
when I demolish your cities.

15 I will take vengeance in anger and wrath
on the nations that have not obeyed me.


If you look at Micah 5 (likely not even written by Micah) it is absolutely dealing with contemporary issues, looking for the Nation of Judah to stand up in support of the Nation of Israel against a specific threat at a specific time in history.

So now let's look at the alleged fulfillment.

quote:
Matthew 2:1 (New International Version, 2010)

Matthew 2

The Magi Visit the Messiah

1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem


Nothing in that about a ruler and certainly nothing about the issue that Micah was addressing.

Once again, all that this prophecy seems to entail is taking stuff out of context and trying to shoehorn it into the Jesus mythos.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Zubbbra25, posted 11-29-2010 3:33 PM jar has responded
 Message 145 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 12:46 PM jar has responded

  
Zubbbra25
Junior Member (Idle past 1605 days)
Posts: 22
Joined: 10-11-2010


Message 6 of 253 (593800)
11-29-2010 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
11-29-2010 1:02 PM


Re: Micah 5:2
This seems like an interesting topic. I received an e-mail from a local creo as he kept saying that there are roughly 60 prophecies fulfilled in the bible. So seeing you disect them in such a way is very interesting.

I will post but one or two that he sent to me (more if you would like) and we could see if those are fulfilled or not

Old Testament

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

New Testament

Matthew 1:22-23 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

And the next one:

Old Testament

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

New Testament

Matthew 21:4-5 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

John 12:14-15 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

Now I am not a biblical scholar at all, I don't even have a bible on my bookshelf so I'm unsure as to what context these passages have been taken under.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 1:02 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 4:15 PM Zubbbra25 has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 7 of 253 (593803)
11-29-2010 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Zubbbra25
11-29-2010 3:33 PM


Isaiah 7
Well, since Isaiah 7:14 is the next one on the list, we can go ahead and deal with it.

Like all the others, it is NOT a Prophecy fulfilled by Jesus or even a reference to Jesus but it is another comment on the same topics as in the previous two examples.

We need to remember that Isaiah like Micah lived in turbulent times when the big powers were changing, Egypt waning and Syria and Assyria on the ascendancy. Israel and Samara had fallen and were vassal states of Syria and Assyria, the Tribe of Ephraim had some time before allied itself with Israel and opposed to Judah.

So first, here is the passage used as a prophecy.

quote:
Isaiah 7:14 (New International Version, 2010)

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.


So is that a reference to Jesus?

Let's look at the quote mine in context.

First the short version ...

quote:
13 Then Isaiah said, Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17 The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judahhe will bring the king of Assyria.

Note the part in bold and underlined that they always leave out.

It is clear that the child is to be born then and there and that before the child is old enough to know right from wrong, the predictions will be fulfilled, the two nations feared will be in ruin and the Assyrians will be attacking Judah.

But what are the two nations to be feared? They are covered at the beginning of Isaiah 7 ...

quote:
1 When Ahaz son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, was king of Judah, King Rezin of Aram and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel marched up to fight against Jerusalem, but they could not overpower it.

2 Now the house of David was told, Aram has allied itself with Ephraim; so the hearts of Ahaz and his people were shaken, as the trees of the forest are shaken by the wind.


So we have the time, the fact that Israel was allied with Aram (Damascus) and threatening Judah.

So there does not seem to be anything in Isaiah 7 that is related to Jesus in anyway.

Next let's look at the supposed fulfillment.

quote:
Matthew 1:18-21 (New International Version, 2010)

Joseph Accepts Jesus as His Son
18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.


Not a single bit that actually seems related to Isaiah 7:14, just more quote mining. verbal gymnastics and tap dancing.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Zubbbra25, posted 11-29-2010 3:33 PM Zubbbra25 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Zubbbra25, posted 11-29-2010 4:19 PM jar has responded
 Message 153 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 1:24 PM jar has responded

  
Zubbbra25
Junior Member (Idle past 1605 days)
Posts: 22
Joined: 10-11-2010


Message 8 of 253 (593804)
11-29-2010 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
11-29-2010 4:15 PM


Re: Isaiah 7
Hmmm... I would love to know how many of the predicitions my creo friend sent me are just out-of-context quotes.

Keep it up jar, this is really interesting! I've never taken the time to do any biblical reading nor biblical history at that, so I'm loving this

My thanks!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 4:15 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 4:28 PM Zubbbra25 has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 9 of 253 (593806)
11-29-2010 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Zubbbra25
11-29-2010 4:19 PM


Re: Isaiah 7
Without even knowing what quotes he used I can say with a VERY, VERY high degree of confidence, 100%.

What I find most sad is that folk such as your friend lose so much of the value of the stories. This was a really momentous time for the people involved and the folk like Isaiah and Micah were much like many today; like the people saying "If we keep on screwing up the environment all hell will result."

When they take the position that the Bible is simply some prelude to Jesus they miss out on so very much, and when they take stuff out of context to support their position, they are simply creating fantasy.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Zubbbra25, posted 11-29-2010 4:19 PM Zubbbra25 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by hERICtic, posted 11-29-2010 5:32 PM jar has responded
 Message 12 by frako, posted 11-29-2010 5:38 PM jar has responded

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2016 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 10 of 253 (593809)
11-29-2010 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
11-29-2010 4:28 PM


Re: Isaiah 7
The initial claim was that there was over 300 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. The problem though, is that the apologist would first have to show the events in the gospels occured in the first place!

Without the evidence of these happenings, one cannot claim they came to pass.

The mere fact though, once you break down the so called prophecies and show them in their context, its obvious that the stories found in the gospels never happened. Its midrash. The authors fell back upon the OT and built stories around the earlier ones.

There are prophecies, events and quotes mirrored from the OT to the NT, which became the stories found in the gospels.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 4:28 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 5:35 PM hERICtic has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 11 of 253 (593810)
11-29-2010 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by hERICtic
11-29-2010 5:32 PM


Re: Isaiah 7
The mere fact though, once you break down the so called prophecies and show them in their context, its obvious that the stories found in the gospels never happened.

I would certainly not go that far at all.

Edited by jar, : fix quotebox


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by hERICtic, posted 11-29-2010 5:32 PM hERICtic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by hERICtic, posted 11-29-2010 7:00 PM jar has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2702
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 12 of 253 (593812)
11-29-2010 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
11-29-2010 4:28 PM


Re: Isaiah 7
I wonder why icdesighn is not joining in to defend his claim. Could it be that he knew he was taking the prophecies out of context?

Genesis 49:10:

The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.

This one does not even need the whole context.

Rome ruled over the Jews so the -"staff" was taken
The nation of jews mostly believes that jesus was not the mesias- So the obidiance of the nation is not his even worse the bible said the jews killed him so this prophecy is a clear no on fulfillement

And still some cite it.

Jeremiah 23:5:

"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.

Well tough luck he never reigned, wisely or unwisely, he was never a king, and not much justice and right came out of his life or death.

and still it is being cited


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 4:28 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 12-01-2010 12:47 PM frako has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 13 of 253 (593816)
11-29-2010 6:15 PM


Daniel 9:25
For Daniel, we jump forward about 150 years and several regime changes. The Syrians and the Assyrians have conquered Judah, the Hebrews (many) have been carried off into exile and now the Syrians and Assyrians in turn have been conquered by the Persians. Daniel had been carried off as a child but under the Persians, life for the Hebrews has been quite different than under the hand of Damascus or Babylon. Beginning with Darius and right on through Cyrus the policy was one of allowing freedom of religion and even promoting the return of the Hebrews (many didn't want to go back) and the rebuilding of the Temple.

The actual story of Daniel covers (with lots of redaction and editorial inserts) the period between the end of Babylonian rule and the early Persian Empire.

So once again, let's examine what is claimed to be prophecy of Jesus.

quote:
Daniel 9:25 (New International Version, 2010)

25 Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven sevens, and sixty-two sevens. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.


But what about the context?

Here is the passage in full:

quote:
The Seventy Sevens

20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision:

24 Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

25 Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven sevens, and sixty-two sevens. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two sevens, the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven. In the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.


Note the parts they always leave out.

The Anointed One does get put to death, but has nothing. The City gets destroyed and there will be War until the end and best of all he gets to set up an "abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Doesn't sound much like Jesus.

And what of the supposed fulfillment?

quote:
Galatians 4:4 (New International Version, 2010)

4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,


And what is the context of Galatians?

quote:
Galatians 4

1 What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2 The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world. 4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, Abba, Father. 7 So you are no longer a slave, but Gods child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.


Nothing at all like what is described in Daniel.

Edited by jar, : fix parentheses


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2016 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 14 of 253 (593826)
11-29-2010 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
11-29-2010 5:35 PM


Re: Isaiah 7
Jar writes:

I would certainly not go that far at all.

I certainly would. If you take away the so called 350+ prophecies (and phrases), there really isnt much substance left in the gospels.

In other words, the story in Matthew of the virgin birth. Lifted from Isa 7:14. If you take that occurence away, no virgin birth.
Micah...no Bethlehem. Pierced hands and feet, crucifixion. Taking his garments, friends deserting him, no bones broken, Passover sacrifice, riding the colt, flight to Egypt, etc. Those are just at the top of my head. How about the actual quotes lifted from the OT which were put in the mouth of Jesus? Its obvious they were lifted from the OT, taken out of context and stories were built around them.

Seriously, if you go "prophecy by prophecy"(many which arent even prophecies to begin with, but "actual" past events retold differently-multiplying the loaves, killing of infants) and then focus on their context, then remove them from the NT, what exactly is left?

Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 5:35 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 7:13 PM hERICtic has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 15 of 253 (593828)
11-29-2010 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by hERICtic
11-29-2010 7:00 PM


Re: Isaiah 7
None of the prophecies are even in the New Testament.

All that you say may well be obvious to you and if so, then why not start a thread on it and see if you can support your position, but none of it is relevant to this thread or topic.

The Gospels of course will have exactly the same substance as they do now.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by hERICtic, posted 11-29-2010 7:00 PM hERICtic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by hERICtic, posted 11-29-2010 9:18 PM jar has responded

  
1
23456
...
17NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017