Life without God

GDR writes:I hesitate in posting this as I seem to keep winding up in debates, (when all I really want is a discussion),in which I feel completely unqualified to debate. We all have our beliefs and I can’t imagine that I’ll change yours, or anyone else for that matter. Also as being someone who has no doubt that I don't have all my ducks in a row I don't want to sound preachy, but I thought I'd post a couple of my thoughts after reading this thread and the thread on deconversion.If I could sit down over a beer with you there are a few questions I would like to ask about your so called deconversion. It seems your background in the church has been evangelical. Personally I would describe myself as an evangelical who has a considerable problem with the theology and actions of many of those who would describe themselves in the same way.It seems to me that the evangelical church so often, particularly in North America, desperately tries turning the Bible into something that it is not intended to be. It is not an equal to the members of the trinity. People like to have something that gives them definitive guidelines, or a set of laws and regulations so that they can have certainty in their lives. Certainly it has some of that in it but I believe that it is a lot more than that. I think that the Bible is the story of God’s people and His relationship with them. However it is the story of people with all their strengths and weaknesses and readers of the Bible should, IMHO, understand that.For example from Leviticus Chap 20:

quote:

---

10 ‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wifewith the wife of his neighborboth the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

---

Now compare this from John Chap 8

quote:

---

1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say? 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her. 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?
11 No one, sir, she said.
Then neither do I condemn you, Jesus declared. Go now and leave your life of sin.

---

Or how about this from Deuteronomy 21:

quote:

---

18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard. 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

---

Compare that to the story of the Good SamaritanThe book of Acts tells the story of the early Christian church. The Christian church did not stop growing after that book was written. The history of both the early Jews and the Christian church is full of abuse and error but we have been given both tradition reason and revelation to sort out, over time, what is of God and what comes from self interest and self promotion.
It certainly seems to appear that we have evolved physically over a period of time and it appears to me that in a very similar manner we are evolving spiritually over time.Frankly the god that many Christians seem to believe in is a god that I wouldn’t believe in either. I’m not at all inclined to worship a God that advocates stoning to death people who are guilty of blasphemy, but I have more than happy to worship a god that desires restorative justice for all. The question then becomes does such a god exist, and we have come to different conclusions.I have no idea of whether or not God led you to your wallet although my inclination is that you are just very fortunate, but in either case if it had been me I would still give thanks as I believe I am a created being who lives in a world where finding the wallet was possible.I don’t know on what basis you rejected your faith. It is my view, rightly or wrongly, that when people look at the condition of the church and the cold and dead theology that is sometimes taught, they may well be closer to the heart of God after leaving the church than they were before.I know I keep repeating this verse from Micah but it is my contention that it simply states what is at the very heart of Christianity.

quote:

---

Micah 6:8: He has told you, O man what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God.

---

I think that all of us here can agree that humility, justice and kindness are something we should all strive for and I’m pretty sure that didn’t change for you after you left the church.

GDR writes:My belief is that God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. Your view seems to suggest that God adjusts his morality based on the nature of His people. It does seem to me that God is above situational ethics.

GDR writes: I also contend that the seeming contradictions in the Bible, (although I would argue that they are real contradictions) have people confused. I suggest that the reason for the confusion is that people like yourself are trying to turn the Bible into something God never intended it to be. It is not a magic rule book but the story of God breaking into this world starting with His chosen people — the Jews. Yes, the Jews were meant to stand out as God’s chosen people to bring God’s message to the world. However, they were supposed to stand out by living out the Ten Commandments. More than that they were meant to stand out against the pagan nations around them with their love for God and neighbour. However, just like the church today, the Jews were more often than not influenced by the culture(s) around them. Do you really believe that God at any time in history would want His chosen people to act in this manner that I’ll re-quote from Deuteronomy 21.

quote:

---

18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard. 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

---

GDR writes:Do you honestly believe that the God that we worship through the lens of Jesus would ever at any time in human history want a father and mother to do to his son what is described in that verse. Frankly, if you can justify God doing that then we worship very different Gods.

GDR writes:If however, we see that as being in the Bible because God wants us to actually use the reason and wisdom that he has given us to sort out what is of God and what comes from the culture around us, or from self-interest, then it makes sense. God has given us a Bible that demonstrates what happens when we misuse the gift of free-will. The Bible was not meant to be used as a book to control us and put us all into little boxes. It is meant to be the first part of the narrative of how God first revealed himself to His people and how they used and misused the revelation that they had been given. The Bible is not the 4th member of the Trinity. He has given us free will and we continually seem to more often than not worship at the altar of the love of self.

GDR writes:Why would he have somebody's son stoned to death for standing up to their parents, (who could very well be in the wrong in the first place), and then provide a means of forgiveness for other transgressions?