Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 116 (8752 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 05-28-2017 12:36 PM
123 online now:
Coyote, DrJones*, PaulK, XJTA (4 members, 119 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: DeliverUsFromEvolution
Post Volume:
Total: 809,160 Year: 13,766/21,208 Month: 3,248/3,605 Week: 34/556 Day: 34/54 Hour: 0/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
22232425
26
27Next
Author Topic:   Does the universe have total net energy of zero?
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11352
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 376 of 404 (698953)
05-11-2013 8:23 AM


The problem of the singularity is analogous to physical laws that have distance in the denominator. The intensity of sound doesn't really become infinite when you reach the source, and gravity doesn't really become infinite when the distance of separation is 0, but that is the result you get if you just blindly apply the formulas.

Or if you just listen


  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13026
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 377 of 404 (698960)
05-11-2013 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by justatruthseeker
05-10-2013 11:56 PM


justatruthseeker writes:

... this is a forum isn't it, a place to debate theories?


We discuss theories here. What we debate is usually misunderstanding of theories.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-10-2013 11:56 PM justatruthseeker has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9550
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 378 of 404 (698970)
05-11-2013 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by justatruthseeker
05-10-2013 7:05 PM


Only gibberish when it goes against you?

Yes, what you posted was gibberish. I'll point to some of the more obvious "non science" in your post.

The equations for two or more such masses has never been solved in relativity.

Einstein's equations are a set of inter-related differential equations that are extremely difficult to solve. Any who has taken a course in differential equations, which I suspect is a grouping that excludes you, can appreciate that it is quite unsurprising that there are exact solutions to the equations for only a small set of circumstances. The absence of solutions for many circumstances is of no particular import. Let's also note that there is no general solution to the n body problem, for n > 3, and yet we can still predict the motion of planets in the solar system with great accuracy using Newtonian mechanics.

There is no reason to believe that a space with more than one black hole in it violates general relativity, and there is evidence of multiple black holes in the universe. Your attempt at a point making a point here is gibberish.

This is the ONLY reason the Big Bang theory could even hold any merit whatsoever. So if all of the universe was condensed into a zero-point volume mass,

Whatever theory the above quote is supposed to describe, it is not the Big Bang theory of reality, which does not involve a zero volume singularity. And what the heck is a "zero-point volume mass" anyway? Just more gibberish.

Free gibberish debunk. An electron has no size. An electron and a proton at the same point in space does not form a singularity. So what would such a combination be?

where all charges would balance each other, then there is no reason for the Big Bang to have occurred, since energy cannot be destroyed and all in existence is the same as it was initially.

The same as it was initially in what way? In quantity perhaps if we insist on the conservation of energy under all circumstance. But not necessarily in the same form of course.

But that's not the gibberish I mean to point out. A balanced amount of charge exists in a battery, yet there is chemical energy stored therein. Further, the question raised in the original discussion is whether the current situation, with charges and masses distributed as they are might total zero energy. You aren't even answering the right question.

as if all is balanced, why start expansion in the first place?

Because electrical/magnetic forces are not the only ones in existence? Because even with charges in balanced an arrangement of particles can have large amounts of kinetic energy, and various types of stored energy, some positive and some negative? That's right. Balanced necessarily means zero energy is still more gibberish.

Your attempts to describe convention science are like nails screeching across a black board. You simply don't know enough real physics for anyone to value your personal impressions of whether electric cosmology is a better fit than general relativity and we have plenty of evidence for the latter. My personal impression is that there must be a better description of this stuff elsewhere.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : correction to n-body problem


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-10-2013 7:05 PM justatruthseeker has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-13-2013 7:01 PM NoNukes has responded

    
justatruthseeker
Member (Idle past 583 days)
Posts: 117
From: Tulsa, OK, USA
Joined: 05-05-2013


Message 379 of 404 (699044)
05-13-2013 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by Percy
05-10-2013 9:19 PM


quote:
So cosmologists know better than to blindly apply the laws of general relativity all the way back to T=0. They understand that there wasn't really any singularity. A number of theories have been proposed to explain what really happens, but none has yet garnered enough evidence to win out over the others.

You don't really believe that do you? What does it matter what theory of Black Holes we think correct if none of them are real to begin with? Cosmologist almost weekly mention the physical Black Hole in the center's of galaxies they have no explanation for to explain the vast plasma jets ejecting from their centers, yet scoff at the idea that quasar's might be ejected from galactic cores. After all, almost every single ones lies within a 20 degree plane of an active galaxies axis, the others at the ends of spiral arms, the plasma connection quite obvious.

Just Google "black hole" and come back at tell me they talk about them as if they are not real. Got to NASA's web page and look it up. They use the impossible to explain what has been demonstrated over and over in the laboratory for over 100 years, plasma. And you want me to trust those telling me all about Black Holes?? They are the ones I am to believe, the ones that tell you 99% of the universe is plasma, then ignore it in every theory they have? Those experts? Shall we see what Stephen Hawkings thinks about the reality of Black Holes?

Are you mad????

Edited by justatruthseeker, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Percy, posted 05-10-2013 9:19 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by Panda, posted 05-13-2013 7:03 PM justatruthseeker has not yet responded
 Message 384 by Percy, posted 05-14-2013 7:19 AM justatruthseeker has responded
 Message 386 by Son Goku, posted 05-15-2013 6:16 AM justatruthseeker has not yet responded

    
justatruthseeker
Member (Idle past 583 days)
Posts: 117
From: Tulsa, OK, USA
Joined: 05-05-2013


Message 380 of 404 (699045)
05-13-2013 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by NoNukes
05-11-2013 9:18 PM


quote:
Einstein's equations are a set of inter-related differential equations that are extremely difficult to solve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_field_equations

quote:
The Einstein field equations (EFE) or Einstein's equations are a set of 10 equations in Albert Einstein's general theory of relativity which describe the fundamental interaction of gravitation as a result of spacetime being curved by matter and energy. First published by Einstein in 1915 as a tensor equation, the EFE equate local spacetime curvature (expressed by the Einstein tensor) with the local energy and momentum within that spacetime (expressed by the stress–energy tensor).

Similar to the way that electromagnetic fields are determined using charges and currents via Maxwell's equations,....Maxwell's equations are partial differential equations that relate the electric and magnetic fields to each other and to the electric charges and currents. Often, the charges and currents are themselves dependent on the electric and magnetic fields via the Lorentz force equation and the constitutive relations. These all form a set of coupled partial differential equations, which are often very difficult to solve. In fact, the solutions of these equations encompass all the diverse phenomena in the entire field of classical electromagnetism. A thorough discussion is far beyond the scope of the article, but some general notes follow.


Which equations he derived from the work of Ampere, Weber and Gauss. Weber already had a relativistic formula for the working of the atom before the electron, proton or neutron had ever been discovered. Which Maxwell "simplified" with partial differential equations, and Einstein tried to put back into the non-linear form.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_field_equations

quote:
The nonlinearity of the EFE distinguishes general relativity from many other fundamental physical theories. For example, Maxwell's equations of electromagnetism are linear in the electric and magnetic fields, and charge and current distributions (i.e. the sum of two solutions is also a solution); another example is Schrödinger's equation of quantum mechanics which is linear in the wavefunction.
So Maxwell messed Weber's theory up which he had almost completed before he died, and Einstein tried to get right back there, but had to use Maxwell's equations because they were "Standard" theory then.

quote:
Whatever theory the above quote is supposed to describe, it is not the Big Bang theory of reality, which does not involve a zero volume singularity. And what the heck is a "zero-point volume mass" anyway? Just more gibberish.

Free gibberish debunk. An electron has no size. An electron and a proton at the same point in space does not form a singularity. So what would such a combination be?



Big Bang Theory Astronomy

pick one, lets see

http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/...lectrodynamics.html

Edited by justatruthseeker, : No reason given.

Edited by justatruthseeker, : added link

Edited by Admin, : Fix link.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by NoNukes, posted 05-11-2013 9:18 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by NoNukes, posted 05-13-2013 8:12 PM justatruthseeker has not yet responded
 Message 383 by NoNukes, posted 05-13-2013 9:53 PM justatruthseeker has not yet responded
 Message 385 by Percy, posted 05-14-2013 7:54 AM justatruthseeker has not yet responded

    
Panda
Member (Idle past 1126 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 381 of 404 (699046)
05-13-2013 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by justatruthseeker
05-13-2013 6:43 PM


justatruthseeker writes:

What does it matter what theory of Black Holes we think correct if none of them are real to begin with?


Your reading comprehension is sub-normal.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-13-2013 6:43 PM justatruthseeker has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9550
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 382 of 404 (699047)
05-13-2013 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by justatruthseeker
05-13-2013 7:01 PM


Which equations he derived from the work of Ampere, Weber and Gauss. Weber already had a relativistic formula for the working of the atom before the electron, proton or neutron had ever been discovered.

None of which has even the slightest relevance to the theory of General Relativity or to anything else I posted. In fact, nothing in your entire post is the least bit responsive or rebuts my pointing out that you are posting gibberish.

Here you quote from Wikipedia:

quote:
The nonlinearity of the EFE distinguishes general relativity from many other fundamental physical theories. For example, Maxwell's equations of electromagnetism are linear in the electric and magnetic fields, and charge and current distributions (i.e. the sum of two solutions is also a solution); another example is Schrödinger's equation of quantum mechanics which is linear in the wavefunction.

And comment thusly...

So Maxwell messed Weber's theory up which he had almost completed before he died, and Einstein tried to get right back there, but had to use Maxwell's equations because they were "Standard" theory then.

More gibberish. Your comment does not follow from the paragraph of stuff you quoted from Wikipedia, and does not address anything I've posted. What's wrong with you?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-13-2013 7:01 PM justatruthseeker has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9550
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 383 of 404 (699052)
05-13-2013 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by justatruthseeker
05-13-2013 7:01 PM


Weber already had a relativistic formula for the working of the atom before the electron, proton or neutron had ever been discovered. Which Maxwell "simplified" with partial differential equations, and Einstein tried to put back into the non-linear form.

Pure gibberish. Einstein did nothing of the sort.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-13-2013 7:01 PM justatruthseeker has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15632
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 384 of 404 (699073)
05-14-2013 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by justatruthseeker
05-13-2013 6:43 PM


Hi JustATruthSeeker,

I'm afraid you just pulled an Emily Litella. You seem to have forgotten that I was responding to your comment about the Big Bang, not black holes. In Message 364 you said:

justatruthseeker writes:

It's not my theory of the Big Bang, it's theirs. Your astrophysicists are saying all matter was confined in a 0 point volume singularity.

And that's what I responded to, pointing out that scientists don't really believe there was a singularity at T=0. A number of theories have been proposed to explain what really happens, but none has yet garnered enough evidence to win out over the others.

I didn't say anything about black holes, but you seem to be wrong about them, too. Blindly applying the equations of general relativity does yield a singularity at the center of black holes, but scientists understand that general relativity isn't the full story at very small scales. They don't really believe there's a singularity at the center of black holes. As the Wikipedia article on black holes states:

Wikipedia writes:

The appearance of singularities in general relativity is commonly perceived as signaling the breakdown of the theory [general relativity]. This breakdown, however, is expected; it occurs in a situation where quantum effects should describe these actions, due to the extremely high density and therefore particle interactions. To date, it has not been possible to combine quantum and gravitational effects into a single theory, although there exist attempts to formulate such a theory of quantum gravity. It is generally expected that such a theory will not feature any singularities.

In this view of singularities they are seen as artifacts of applying only general relativity instead of general relativity and quantum theory together. Scientists don't believe singularities exist in the real universe.

Can I leave the taunt out this time, or do I need to supply a taunt before you'll respond? If a taunt is required then just let me know and I'll add one. And I was wondering, if I edit in taunts to my other posts that you ignored, will you then respond to those, too?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-13-2013 6:43 PM justatruthseeker has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-16-2013 11:43 AM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15632
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 385 of 404 (699075)
05-14-2013 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 380 by justatruthseeker
05-13-2013 7:01 PM


Hi JustATruthSeeker,

I agree with NoNukes that you appear to posting gibberish. Nothing you say makes any sense, it certainly doesn't appear to be anything true about the real world, nor does it appear to have anything to do with the posts you're replying to or to the websites you quote. I guess I can only echo NoNukes question: What is wrong with you?

I corrected the damaged link in your post, that portion of your message now reads:

justatruthseeker writes:

quote:
Whatever theory the above quote is supposed to describe, it is not the Big Bang theory of reality, which does not involve a zero volume singularity. And what the heck is a "zero-point volume mass" anyway? Just more gibberish.

Free gibberish debunk. An electron has no size. An electron and a proton at the same point in space does not form a singularity. So what would such a combination be?



Big Bang Theory Astronomy

pick one, lets see

http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/...lectrodynamics.html

The first link is a Google search for "big bang theory astronomy", and the link you posted does not appear on the first two pages of Google results. Given that your link doesn't contain the phrase "big bang", I doubt it appears on any page. Can you not get anything right?

But thanks for the link to the crank on-line magazine. Here's a tip. The next time someone claims to be sharing suppressed scientific knowledge with you, they're a crank. You conspiracy suckers are all alike. Anytime someone taps you on the shoulder and whispers, "Hey, buddy, want to hear about the secret conspiracy," you guys just lap it up.

Today's accepted scientific theories attained that position through painstaking study of and comparison against the real world. Proving any of them wrong will require more painstaking study of and comparison against the real world, not whatever it is you're doing.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-13-2013 7:01 PM justatruthseeker has not yet responded

    
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1067
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 386 of 404 (699153)
05-15-2013 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by justatruthseeker
05-13-2013 6:43 PM


Cosmologist almost weekly mention the physical Black Hole in the center's of galaxies they have no explanation for to explain the vast plasma jets ejecting from their centers

This a little false. Firstly the magnetic field lines of black holes are distorted by the rotation of the black hole itself, so you effectively get spinning magnetic field lines. Any nearby matter (such as that in the accretion disk) attaches itself to the magnetic field lines. So you get matter spinning around the black hole.

However the curvature of space causes that the magnetic field lines around the equator of the black hole to have a very high intensity, with the intensity dropping off away from the equator. So particles will move away from the equator to minimize their energy.

So you have a pile of matter spinning around the hole trapped by the magnetic field lines moving up/down to the north/south pole, while at the same time spinning rapidly. Essentially at the poles the matter is then flung out into space via the centrifugal force of rotating and the curvature of space focusing it up/down.

This is the Blandford–Znajek process. There are three other major ways a black hole could fling particles into space as jets, the major question would be how much do these processes contribute.

So it is not the case that there is "no explanation", rather there are four and observational evidence shows at least one of them, the Blandford–Znajek process, to be at work (which is why I explained).

What we don't know is if the Blandford–Znajek process provides all the energy to the jets.

What does it matter what theory of Black Holes we think correct if none of them are real to begin with?

Are you aware that we've actually seen a black hole eat a star with direct observation:
Black Hole eats star.

We've also recently seen one consume a star system, including the effects on one of the planets:
Tidal disruption of a super-Jupiter by a massive black hole


This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-13-2013 6:43 PM justatruthseeker has not yet responded

  
justatruthseeker
Member (Idle past 583 days)
Posts: 117
From: Tulsa, OK, USA
Joined: 05-05-2013


Message 387 of 404 (699252)
05-16-2013 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by Percy
05-14-2013 7:19 AM


quote:
In this view of singularities they are seen as artifacts of applying only general relativity instead of general relativity and quantum theory together. Scientists don't believe singularities exist in the real universe.

Doesn't seem to be anyones interpretation but yours. Funny how that seems to be the case everytime you all say they say one thing, when everytime you look it up they say just the opposite, why do you think that is? Maybe because you don't actually know what they say, just what you want to believe they say, so you can whitewash it???
http://www.galex.caltech.edu/newsroom/glx2012-02r.html

Quite amazing that something not believed to exist can be tearing stars apart, since that is their official explanation for what is observed. get your story straight next time.

Edited by justatruthseeker, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Percy, posted 05-14-2013 7:19 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by Panda, posted 05-16-2013 11:59 AM justatruthseeker has responded
 Message 391 by Percy, posted 05-16-2013 12:23 PM justatruthseeker has not yet responded
 Message 392 by NoNukes, posted 05-16-2013 12:50 PM justatruthseeker has not yet responded

    
Panda
Member (Idle past 1126 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 388 of 404 (699255)
05-16-2013 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 387 by justatruthseeker
05-16-2013 11:43 AM


justatruthseeker writes:

Doesn't seem to be anyones interpretation but yours. Funny how that seems to be the case everytime you all say they say one thing, when everytime you look it up they say just the opposite, why do you think that is? Maybe because you don't actually know what they say, just what you want to believe they say, so you can whitewash it???
http://www.galex.caltech.edu/newsroom/glx2012-02r.html

Quite amazing that something not believed to exist can be tearing stars apart, since that is their official explanation for what is observed. get your story straight next time.


Soooo.....you still can't tell the difference between a black hole and a singularity.
You aren't really doing very well, are you.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-16-2013 11:43 AM justatruthseeker has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-16-2013 12:08 PM Panda has responded

  
justatruthseeker
Member (Idle past 583 days)
Posts: 117
From: Tulsa, OK, USA
Joined: 05-05-2013


Message 389 of 404 (699257)
05-16-2013 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 388 by Panda
05-16-2013 11:59 AM


quote:
Soooo.....you still can't tell the difference between a black hole and a singularity.
You aren't really doing very well, are you.

I would say you are the one that can't tell the difference, since according to your theorists, they are the exact same thing.
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=55
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity
And don't try to distract with that infintile reliance on quantum theory, it does not apply.

quote:
It must be stated that these come due to the breaking down of the classical theory. As yet, there is no theory of quantum gravity, but it is entirely possible that the singularities may be avoided with a theory of quantum gravity.

So whenever you devise a quantum gravity theory just let me know, ok?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by Panda, posted 05-16-2013 11:59 AM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by Panda, posted 05-16-2013 12:12 PM justatruthseeker has responded

    
Panda
Member (Idle past 1126 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 390 of 404 (699259)
05-16-2013 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by justatruthseeker
05-16-2013 12:08 PM


justatruthseeker writes:

I would say you are the one that can't tell the difference


That is because you are unable to admit that you can't tell the difference between a black hole and a singularity.
You prefer distraction to honesty.

As I said, you still can't tell the difference between a black hole and a singularity.
You really aren't doing very well, are you.

/pat

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-16-2013 12:08 PM justatruthseeker has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-16-2013 1:52 PM Panda has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
22232425
26
27Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017