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Author
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Topic: Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 373 of 563 (915739)
02-17-2024 1:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 365 by Percy
02-17-2024 9:17 AM
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The thing that drives me crazy about historicists is that most of them won't even consider the mythicist position or look at the evidence presented. They demand the credentials of anyone questioning a historical jesus and say their arguments are illegitimate if they are agnostic or atheist, while they embrace the Christian scholars and pseudo scholars. A degree in the New Testament is usually not an academic degree. The vast majority of Christian biblical "scholars" have their degrees from Bible colleges or diploma mills. Carrier's books can be a slog for those not used to academic presentations of history or religion. I get it. Just as I cannot get through academic works on chemistry or biology subjects, I do not expect laymen to get through an academic presentation on the historicity of Jesus. That does not mean it is not presenting evidence and a cogent argument. There are plenty of nonacademic presentations of mythicism. Like any subject, there are nutballs, quacks and cranks. There are also rational, evidenced presentations. Edited by Theodoric, .
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 365 by Percy, posted 02-17-2024 9:17 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 374 of 563 (915743)
02-17-2024 1:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 367 by Phat
02-17-2024 11:11 AM
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Re: Argument From Authority
But there is no evidence. If there is present. If you have contemporary, non-biblical evidence for the Jesus of your bible, you will be worth millions, win many awards and destroy multiple religions. Present it.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 367 by Phat, posted 02-17-2024 11:11 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 375 of 563 (915745)
02-17-2024 1:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 372 by PaulK
02-17-2024 1:17 PM
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Re: Argument From Authority
Where is the bias against a historical jesus? Do you think demanding evidence is biased? Do you think there is evidence?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 372 by PaulK, posted 02-17-2024 1:17 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 376 by PaulK, posted 02-17-2024 1:40 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 377 of 563 (915751)
02-17-2024 2:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 376 by PaulK
02-17-2024 1:40 PM
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Re: Argument From Authority
That is not evidence. We have no idea who wrote the gospels. The vast majority of what is written there can be shown to be untrue. The gospels do not even agree with each other. They were written decades after the events and can be shown that the latter are rewrites of the former as the politics of the believers changed. There is no external corroboration of the texts. We have no idea of really who Paul was. He clearly states he has no knowledge of Jesus other than through revelation. He has not learned anything about Jesus from any man. Brother of Jesus may have(and based upon Paul's own writings) probably did mean the same as today. Brother of or in Christ means a follower. This term was also used for other mystery religions. If this term was used for a follower of Mithra or Dionysus then that is proof they were historical people? There is no reference to the Josephus passage until the 3rd century. Even if the line is not an interpolation, it is not evidence for a historical Jesus. It is solely evidence that Josephus heard about Jesus. Weird that an observant Jew would call someone Christ. Weird that he only got a passing reference and no other historian at that time mentions him. None.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 376 by PaulK, posted 02-17-2024 1:40 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 378 by PaulK, posted 02-17-2024 2:15 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 379 of 563 (915757)
02-17-2024 3:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 378 by PaulK
02-17-2024 2:15 PM
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Re: Argument From Authori
So not evidence. Evidence requires corroboration. Joseph's is not evidence of Jesus. He is evidence people had a belief in a Jesus. No other historian mentions Jesus who followers before this time. None.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 378 by PaulK, posted 02-17-2024 2:15 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 380 by PaulK, posted 02-17-2024 4:04 PM | | Theodoric has replied | | | Message 381 by Percy, posted 02-17-2024 5:28 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 382 of 563 (915785)
02-17-2024 7:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 380 by PaulK
02-17-2024 4:04 PM
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Re: Argument From Authori
They all use other sources, they do not make claims about that period without sourcing. Also, there are multiple historians that us corroborating evidence. There is no corroborating evidence for what is is Antiquities. None of these other historians of this period have any sources that are contemporary sources for Jesus. Do you truly have no clue how historical study works? The study of history is not just spouting what people have claimed. It is examining all the evidence and determining what most likely is factual. If you would bother to read what I post you would see I posted a detailed list of historians and writers of that era. Why is Philo silent on the subject, but writes of very similar religious movements of the century before?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 380 by PaulK, posted 02-17-2024 4:04 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 383 by PaulK, posted 02-18-2024 2:08 AM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Yet no contemporary evidence for a historical Jesus. None, zero, zip.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 392 by Phat, posted 02-18-2024 2:24 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 394 of 563 (915828)
02-18-2024 2:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 392 by Phat
02-18-2024 2:24 PM
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Re: Theo Holds His Ground
That is the topic we are discussing. If you want to discuss unevidenced belief, take it elsewhere. If you want to discuss these issues start a new topic or find a place where they are on topic. I guess it does not surprise me that after 21 years here and a stint as a moderator, you still have no idea how things work.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 392 by Phat, posted 02-18-2024 2:24 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 398 of 563 (915832)
02-18-2024 3:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 396 by PaulK
02-18-2024 3:25 PM
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Re: Boyz In The Hood
Lack of evidence is evidence of nothing. There is no contemporary, historical evidence of the biblical Jesus dude or anyone that resembles him. None. Zero. Hitchens's Razor.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 396 by PaulK, posted 02-18-2024 3:25 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 400 by PaulK, posted 02-18-2024 4:08 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 402 of 563 (915846)
02-18-2024 7:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 400 by PaulK
02-18-2024 4:08 PM
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Re: Boyz In The Hood
Only lack of expected evidence is evidence of absence.
No. It is more evidence for it but not definitive. If anyone presented me with contemporary, historical evidence for the Jesus dude or anyone like him, I would reconsider my position. Not change but reconsider.
Then I guess we can dispose of Jesus Mythicism.
Please explain your logic.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 400 by PaulK, posted 02-18-2024 4:08 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 404 by PaulK, posted 02-19-2024 12:26 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 421 of 563 (915874)
02-19-2024 1:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 404 by PaulK
02-19-2024 12:26 AM
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Re: Boyz In The Hood
Mythicism is the natural default. There is no evidence for a historical Jesus. I cannot provide evidence for no evidence other than ask for evidence. Therefore...
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 404 by PaulK, posted 02-19-2024 12:26 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 423 by PaulK, posted 02-19-2024 2:00 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 422 of 563 (915875)
02-19-2024 1:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 413 by Phat
02-19-2024 10:07 AM
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Re: Boyz In The Hood
Please stay on topic.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 413 by Phat, posted 02-19-2024 10:07 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 427 of 563 (915885)
02-19-2024 5:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 426 by PaulK
02-19-2024 3:54 PM
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What is your back ground in historical research? All the books of the Bible are apocryphal. We do not know who wrote them, when or their provenance. We do know some of the Pauline epistles were written by a dude named Paul. That is pretty much all we know about him. He states that everything he knows about Jesus is by revelation. He clearly says he did not know an earthly Jesus or ever met anyone that has met an earthly Jesus. Why do you ignore this evidence?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 426 by PaulK, posted 02-19-2024 3:54 PM | | PaulK has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 436 of 563 (915903)
02-20-2024 9:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 429 by PaulK
02-20-2024 12:28 AM
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Obviously better than yours
So none. Therefore, not better than mine. I actually have training in historical research. Damn, I have a relevant Masters. I know it is not really relevant to this discussion, but as you are resorting to personal attacks I guess I should defend myself. Oh yeah I forgot. I did actual field work at an archaelogical dig in Israel. As you say I have no idea what I am talking about. It just slipped my mind. Tel Gerisa - Wikipedia So Paul does not say what he knows is by revelation alone? Do you want to argue about the definition if apocryphal? Maybe you have a different definition from accepted English.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 429 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2024 12:28 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 441 by Phat, posted 02-20-2024 11:18 AM | | Theodoric has replied | | | Message 444 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2024 1:08 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 437 of 563 (915904)
02-20-2024 9:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 431 by PaulK
02-20-2024 6:21 AM
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So you want to argue by definition?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 431 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2024 6:21 AM | | PaulK has not replied |
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