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Author Topic:   Creation cosmology and the Big Bang
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1378 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


(1)
Message 271 of 305 (666487)
06-27-2012 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Straggler
06-27-2012 6:40 PM


Re: Relativity Doesn't Violate Relativity (that would be silly)
Well, I am somewhat dissimilar to the Universe in that that I may be justifiably presumed to have an inside and outside. I've got a surface. The Universe is not like that. Therefore your analogy is somewhat lame. I may have age as I have an outside standard of comparison for that measurement of my duration. The Universe may not have a surface so your analogy is a category mistake.
Of course, anybody can google big bunk predictions and anybody can google failed big bunk prediction. One always finds a lot via googling.
On the other hand I've considered many alternative cosmogonies and they all also claim to predict a lot and they all claim their forecasts are very accurate and so on. Therefore my criteria is not the predictions but rather an absence or presence of plausible, rational explanations of the causal universal process offered by rivalling presentations. In that respect the big bunk cosmogony markedly lags behind most as hardly anything in it is making any good rational sense. Hot dimensionless points exploding into nowhere is not a particularly credible story. A huge pinch of salt should not be a surprising reaction for anyone telling such a tale.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Straggler, posted 06-27-2012 6:40 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Straggler, posted 06-28-2012 7:29 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1378 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 272 of 305 (666489)
06-27-2012 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by New Cat's Eye
06-27-2012 5:41 PM


Re: Relativity Doesn't Violate Relativity (that would be silly)
In what way that question is nonsensical? Your answer seems to be a non-sequitor but the question is a most natural reaction to an unsupported and impossible claim made. The claim is like stating that somebody who is a basket case is a marathon champion. Obviously such a claim is likely to be met with scepticism and you'd need to explain how it is possible to be a marathon runner without legs to run on. To expand is a verb that has a certain meaning. A balloon can expand exactly because it can have a possible room it can be expanding into. The Universe is not a balloon nor is it a raisin muffin. It's lacking an oven needed to make a claim it does indeed perform the action alleged a plausible one.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-27-2012 5:41 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-28-2012 9:50 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1067
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 273 of 305 (666497)
06-28-2012 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Alfred Maddenstein
06-27-2012 2:25 PM


Re: Big Bang violates physics
Alfred Maddenstein writes:

There must be a concrete mechanism of translation. I don't make vain hypotheses but it is obvious that all matter is interconnected through radiation. The space between "gravitating" bodies is not empty. This is the invisible touch of all matter on all other matter. One idea I liked is imagining this radiation as electromagnetic ropes with torque. This is better than space warped by mass or aether though still it has its conceptual difficulties. The task is to explain how the ropes pass through each other and do not get entangled. Still, that is a start as the observation tells that this is strangely enough the case with light. Light beams don't clash and bounce off each other though are material enough as anyone can feel the pressure of the beating sun.


This cannot possibly work. Light is made of Photons, which carry a spin (intrinsic angular momentum) of 1 unit. Gravity couples to mass, the relativistic generalisation of mass is Stress-Energy. Stress-Energy is a spin-2 quantity of matter, so photons cannot directly couple to it. (Only quantities of equal spin can couple directly.)

The only spin-2 quantity associated with photons is electromagnetic flux. However coupling electromagnetic flux to Stress-Energy results in a theory which falls apart into infinities. (There are also serious conceptual issues with the theory, but I won't mention them for now.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 06-27-2012 2:25 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 06-28-2012 7:16 AM Son Goku has responded

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1067
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 274 of 305 (666499)
06-28-2012 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Alfred Maddenstein
06-27-2012 1:26 PM


Re: Relativity Doesn't Violate Relativity (that would be silly)
Alfred Maddenstein writes:

Sorry, but why I or anybody else should choose Friedmann's co-ordinates for my arbitrary frame of reference? There is no reason for doing so.


There is, it is easier to do most calculations in those coordinates. For some calculations other coordinates are easier and then we use those. This has been said before.

It assumes that space grows from 0D point that was infinitely hot and dense into an ever widening slice as the universal time progresses

No, it assumes (an assumption confirmed by the WMAP) that the universe is approximately homogeneous and isotropic in at least one reference frame.

It further assumes that there is a preferred universal direction of motion claiming that to be a uniform radial recession from any point.

This simply isn't true. Could you tell me where in the metric this preferred universal direction is?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 06-27-2012 1:26 PM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1067
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 275 of 305 (666500)
06-28-2012 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Alfred Maddenstein
06-27-2012 6:54 AM


Re: Big Bang violates physics...
Alfred Maddenstein writes:

My friend, by relativity I mean the deepest underlying principle of relativity which is that everything is related to everything else and that the relation is following strict ratios and not a particular doctrine such as GR.


Strict ratios instead of doctrines? Sounds interesting, what value does it give for the Quadrupole moment of the Cosmic Microwave Background(CMB)?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 06-27-2012 6:54 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 06-28-2012 9:56 AM Son Goku has responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1378 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 276 of 305 (666502)
06-28-2012 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Son Goku
06-28-2012 3:36 AM


Re: Big Bang violates physics
First, ropes- that's not my idea, that's Bill Gaede's hypothesis. So talk to him and tell him that. His idea is actually that there are two forces- one of push and another of pull. His ropes got two strands and are sort of double helix. I don't accept the duality so we strongly disagree. Secondly photons are theoretical entities and in the theory light is propagated as waves, not as particles. Photons are waves dead on arrival in the theory if you forgot that.
Also every single motion may affect something directly and contribute indirectly to something else causing at once the effects of what is called gravity and of what is called electromagnetism. So I don't see what is a problem. My point is simply as there is only one existence, hence there is one motion only possible and therefore one and the same energy is spent for every action and reaction. The division into four forces is a convenient artefact. That division is nothing to be proud about and a good future theory will certainly scrap it. If the current theories fall apart into infinities is the fault of the theories and not any concern of Mother Nature. You folks are confused and don't even really know what gravity is. Is it forceless geometry as per Einstein or is it the force carried by gravitons as per QM? It can't be both, you know.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Son Goku, posted 06-28-2012 3:36 AM Son Goku has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Son Goku, posted 06-28-2012 7:57 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded
 Message 282 by Admin, posted 06-28-2012 9:11 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1378 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 277 of 305 (666504)
06-28-2012 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Admin
06-27-2012 4:02 PM


Re: Admin Request
Ok, as you wish so I will propose a new thread on whether the big bunk hypothesis has got anything to with Minkowski and Einstein relativity.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Admin, posted 06-27-2012 4:02 PM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Admin, posted 06-28-2012 9:06 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10195
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 278 of 305 (666505)
06-28-2012 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Alfred Maddenstein
06-27-2012 7:29 PM


Predictions and the Scientific Method
AM writes:

Therefore your analogy is somewhat lame.

I haven't really made an analogy. I have simply pointed out that when talking about the age of an object we are talking about the coordinate time in the object's rest frame. You still haven't said which frame of reference you are using....?

AM writes:

Therefore my criteria is not the predictions but rather an absence or presence of plausible, rational explanations of the causal universal process offered by rivalling presentations.

In short you have abandoned the scientific method, abandoned any hope of reaching a remotely objective conclusion, and are just going with whatever seems subjectively plausible to you personally.

The reason testable predictions are used in science is because whilst it is very easy to conjure up fantastical explanations to fit the facts one cannot easily force reality to conform to the logical consequences of one's theory. So when we have a theory that successfully leads to the discovery of new facts it is deemed a superior model of reality to one that doesn't.

No doubt you feel that this is deeply unfair and intrinsically biased against your subjectively preferred descriptions. But that is kinda the point. The very purpose of the scientific method is to eliminate such biases as much as possible.

So do you have anything other than subjectively derived notions of plausibility or is that the sum total of your argument here?

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 06-27-2012 7:29 PM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1067
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 279 of 305 (666506)
06-28-2012 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Alfred Maddenstein
06-28-2012 7:16 AM


Re: Big Bang violates physics
Alfred Maddenstein writes:

Secondly photons are theoretical entities


No, photons are particles which have been detected and manipulated on an individual basis.

The strongest proof is the photon correlation experiments of the 1980s, the best of which is the classic:
Grangier, P.; Roger, G.; Aspect, A. "Experimental Evidence for a Photon Anticorrelation Effect on a Beam Splitter: A New Light on Single-Photon Interferences". Europhysics Letters 1 (4): p. 173179.

In this paper photon beams were observed to exhibit effects that cannot possibly be explained in any classical theory of light. Any theory in which light has real determined properties can be shown (mathematically) to be incapable of producing the anti-correlation effects in the beams of light.

Your idea has been totally experimentally refuted.

Photons are waves dead on arrival in the theory if you forgot that.

What do you mean?

My point is simply as there is only one existence, hence there is one motion only possible and therefore one and the same energy is spent for every action and reaction. The division into four forces is a convenient artefact.

Yes, energy is involved in motion, but that tells you nothing. You want to know what causes the motion and it would seem thus far that there is four forces.

Remember people have tried to unify the forces, but all such theories are experimentally refuted. It is conceivable that there really are four forces and not one or two (some think that all the non-gravitational forces might unify, but that gravity is different).

That division is nothing to be proud about and a good future theory will certainly scrap it.

You seem to be convinced that raw logic can trump experimental evidence. There is no evidence thus far that the forces are unified. We think they might be, but that's it. We certainly just can't decide that they are, because it seems nicer.

If the current theories fall apart into infinities is the fault of the theories and not any concern of Mother Nature.

I never said that the theories used by scientists at present have infinities, in fact there are proofs that they don't (J. Feldman, T. Kurd, L. Rosen, J. Wright, QED: A Proof of Renormalizability).

I said that the idea of having gravity being caused by electromagnetism does. All such theories have infinities.

Is it forceless geometry as per Einstein or is it the force carried by gravitons as per QM? It can't be both, you know.

I don't know who this is directed at, but the current evidence suggests and the widely accepted theory is that gravity is a forceless effect which results from geometry.

Many people have suggested that, if gravity is in some way quantum mechanical, then one of the first pieces of evidence would be that gravitational waves would come in particle like lumps. (this is not "per QM", but from separate theories.)

Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 06-28-2012 7:16 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 06-28-2012 9:04 AM Son Goku has not yet responded
 Message 288 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-28-2012 10:26 AM Son Goku has not yet responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1378 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 280 of 305 (666510)
06-28-2012 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Son Goku
06-28-2012 7:57 AM


Re: Big Bang violates physics
Ok, so what is a photon? Does it have physical borders, surface, volume and shape? What happens when two photons meet in one place? Do they bounce off each other or do they pass through one another like ghosts through walls? Light from many sources seems to fuse. Why is that? And what do you mean by light being undetermined? Term is a limit and light has limits as I can stop it with my palm feeling its pressure. And it casts shadows and so on. It's something tangible and not a ghost.
I did not say gravity is caused by electromagnetism. Both are ideas. Ideas don't cause anything. I said what is assumed to be gravity and what is assumed to be electromagnetism are different aspects or combined effects of motion of physical objects. Gravity and charge are both ratios of mass and mass is a measure of material objects in motion. If it's yet not possible to derive the ratios without running into contradiction may not mean it will never be possible. What do you mean by saying the four forces are separated? Are they divorced like husband and wife and live in different countries or what?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Son Goku, posted 06-28-2012 7:57 AM Son Goku has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by vimesey, posted 06-28-2012 9:42 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12504
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 281 of 305 (666511)
06-28-2012 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Alfred Maddenstein
06-28-2012 7:26 AM


Re: Admin Request
Hi Alfred,

First, there is no need to respond to moderator messages, unless they request a response.

Second, about this:

Ok, as you wish so I will propose a new thread on whether the big bunk hypothesis has got anything to with Minkowski and Einstein relativity.

That's not what I said. You were using your own personal definition of relativity. If you would like to propose a thread to argue for the advantages of your definition over the current one you are welcome to do so, but in this thread, unless otherwise noted, qualified or modified, relativity refers to Einsteinian relativity.

You may also propose a thread to discuss your ideas about the big bunk being unrelated to Minkowski and Einsteinian relativity if that's what you'd like to do, but that wasn't what I suggested.

I have stepped in as moderator simply because there can be no constructive discussion while people insist on using different definitions of the same word. What matters to me isn't whether or not the Big Bang is bunk, but clear communication. Relativity already has a definition in cosmological contexts, and that's the definition we will use in this thread.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 06-28-2012 7:26 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12504
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 282 of 305 (666512)
06-28-2012 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Alfred Maddenstein
06-28-2012 7:16 AM


Re: Big Bang violates physics
Alfred Maddenstein writes:

First, ropes- that's not my idea, that's Bill Gaede's hypothesis. So talk to him and tell him that.

If you introduce an idea into a thread then you're expected to address reactions to it yourself.

The goal here at EvC Forum is discussions that actually get somewhere. All evidence and argument should appear in messages in your own words (some quoting is fine) and not be in the form of references or instructions to go elsewhere.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 06-28-2012 7:16 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

    
vimesey
Member
Posts: 848
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 283 of 305 (666513)
06-28-2012 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Alfred Maddenstein
06-28-2012 9:04 AM


Re: Big Bang violates physics
What do you mean by saying the four forces are separated? Are they divorced like husband and wife and live in different countries or what?

Well, I've been trying to look this up, but do I recall that the forces separated in seriously small fractions of a second after the singularity ? It would make Britney Spears' marriage to Jason Allen Alexander seem like the very model of commitment !

(In all seriousness, and genuinely, I do enjoy your analogies - we've had ghosts through walls, marriages, raisin muffins and laundered knickers - they do add some great colour to these boards)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 06-28-2012 9:04 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11348
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 284 of 305 (666515)
06-28-2012 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Alfred Maddenstein
06-27-2012 8:11 PM


Re: Relativity Doesn't Violate Relativity (that would be silly)
In what way that question is nonsensical?

The Universe contains all things. Any thing that it would be expanding into would also be some thing that is a part of the Universe, and thus subject to that expansion. There cannot be anything outside of the Universe for which it to expand into.

Your answer seems to be a non-sequitor but the question is a most natural reaction to an unsupported and impossible claim made.

Well hang on, I'm not saying that the model is most definately the truth. I'm just explaining to you what the model says. Even if the model is wrong, we can still talk about what the model does and does not say.

To expand is a verb that has a certain meaning. A balloon can expand exactly because it can have a possible room it can be expanding into. The Universe is not a balloon nor is it a raisin muffin. It's lacking an oven needed to make a claim it does indeed perform the action alleged a plausible one.

That's fine, but all that really means is that the word "expand" is not totally sufficient for describing the behavior of the Universe in this model. All points in the Universe have the distance between them getting larger. That doesn't require something outside of the universe to exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 06-27-2012 8:11 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 06-28-2012 10:07 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1378 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 285 of 305 (666516)
06-28-2012 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Son Goku
06-28-2012 3:46 AM


Re: Big Bang violates physics...
First of all, you've got no clue what the so-called Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation is. You just allege it is a remnant of the Big Blank. That is an unsupported claim. It might be something else. Some suggest that it is the result of the ubiquitous orbital decay. The spin of every rotating body gradually slows down, friction and dissipation of radiation ensue. That's a much more likely explanation.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Son Goku, posted 06-28-2012 3:46 AM Son Goku has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by vimesey, posted 06-28-2012 10:07 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded
 Message 290 by Straggler, posted 06-28-2012 10:52 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded
 Message 298 by Son Goku, posted 06-28-2012 11:40 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded
 Message 301 by onifre, posted 06-28-2012 12:06 PM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

  
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