Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 107 (8805 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-14-2017 12:08 PM
291 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 824,123 Year: 28,729/21,208 Month: 795/1,847 Week: 170/475 Day: 17/46 Hour: 3/6

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
89
10
1112
...
15Next
Author Topic:   A Proposed Proof That The Origin of The Universe Cannot Be Scientifically Explained
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1761
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 136 of 220 (675666)
10-14-2012 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by NoNukes
10-14-2012 9:51 AM


Re: Explanations and more
Alpha decay does not have a cause.

So is this statement from these guys incorrect?

quote:
The reason alpha decay occurs is because the nucleus has too many protons which cause excessive repulsion. In an attempt to reduce the repulsion, a Helium nucleus is emitted. The way it works is that the Helium nuclei are in constant collision with the walls of the nucleus and because of its energy and mass, there exists a nonzero probability of transmission.

I fully appreciate that most of physics is beyond my comprehension and that my approach to understanding the universe relies primarily on my intuition. That is, comparing new information with what I already know. When we look at the combined body of knowledge that we have concerning the universe we see that everything has a cause save for some very small things at one end of the scale and some very large things at the other end.

I do not understand why we draw the conclusion that something does not have a cause when we see that every other thing that we have come to understand, does have a cause. Why do we not conclude that we simply have not found the cause yet?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2012 9:51 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2012 9:34 PM ProtoTypical has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 137 of 220 (675671)
10-14-2012 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by NoNukes
10-14-2012 9:51 AM


Re: Explanations and more
Alpha decay does not have a cause.

Well, yes and no.

It's probabilistic in nature, there's no saying whether it'll happen at some time or other. But we can say there are circumstances under which there is a non-zero probability of it happening. Now, if there were circumstances under which there was a non-zero probability of the universe happening, then we could ask: why did those circumstances exist, how did they come about?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2012 9:51 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by NoNukes, posted 10-15-2012 4:33 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1581 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 138 of 220 (675682)
10-14-2012 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by subbie
10-13-2012 11:54 PM


Are you pulling the cat's leg, Sub? All those on your list have to compete with each other and with science in the free belief supply market. The quackademic establishment does not have to as it is subsidized into priesthood everywhere. It is voted to be subsidised by a majority of apes in every state. Therefore the contemporary ape trusts only what is labelled science to be its main nonsense supplier. If Mr. Hawking and Mr. Hartle had to compete with the astrologists and chiropractics for credibility with the ape, would they be able to live comfortably just off crapping at the mouths about universes popping out of null-sets? Of course not. They would have to get another job, or learn some arithmetic and stuff.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by subbie, posted 10-13-2012 11:54 PM subbie has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5237
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 139 of 220 (675685)
10-14-2012 4:48 PM


It's ok, I've called the nurse.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-14-2012 8:36 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1581 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 140 of 220 (675693)
10-14-2012 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Tangle
10-14-2012 4:48 PM


Let the nurse listen to Inadequate talk, Disentangled. The poor bugger is raving about the probabilities of the existence to exist.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Tangle, posted 10-14-2012 4:48 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-15-2012 1:49 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10119
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 141 of 220 (675695)
10-14-2012 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by ProtoTypical
10-14-2012 11:23 AM


Re: Explanations and more
So is this statement from these guys incorrect?

I wouldn't consider the explanation to be correct. It looks like an attempt to avoid confusing people with facts that they cannot understand. Excess repulsion? What's that? I would suggest that every nucleus has exactly the correct amount of repulsion. Alpha particles bouncing into the walls of the nucleus?? Really?? Walls?? Why don't alpha particles bounce into the walls of nuclei like Thorium 234 or Proactinium 234?

But let's ignore that particular sloppiness. Every single U238 nucleus has the same number of protons. So why did nucleus A of U238 decay 4.5 billion years ago, while identical nucleus B hasn't decayed yet.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-14-2012 11:23 AM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-15-2012 8:05 AM NoNukes has responded

    
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1761
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 142 of 220 (675720)
10-15-2012 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by NoNukes
10-14-2012 9:34 PM


Re: Explanations and more
Every single U238 nucleus has the same number of protons. So why did nucleus A of U238 decay 4.5 billion years ago, while identical nucleus B hasn't decayed yet.

For the love of Dog man, don't ask me! I mean you might as well ask me why my wife reacts completely differently to identical situations on different days. I would be the first to agree that there is no apparent rhyme or reason for her reactions sometimes but deep down I am sure that there are some however circuitous the causal chain may be. I guess my answer would be that the 2 nuclei in question are not, in fact, identical. Or that the forces acting upon them are not identical. (abe; or that alpha particles are actually female)

My point is that when we examine the universe we see that 99.9999...% of all things have a cause. It seems a mighty leap to encounter something that we do not fully understand and come to the conclusion that there is no cause for it. It seems akin to invoking a god.

Edited by Dogmafood, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2012 9:34 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by NoNukes, posted 10-15-2012 10:01 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply
 Message 144 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-15-2012 10:14 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply
 Message 145 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-15-2012 1:42 PM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10119
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 143 of 220 (675727)
10-15-2012 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by ProtoTypical
10-15-2012 8:05 AM


Re: Explanations and more
I guess my answer would be that the 2 nuclei in question are not, in fact, identical. Or that the forces acting upon them are not identical. (abe; or that alpha particles are actually female)

We describe decay using quantum mech. using the assumption that all of the U238 nuclei are in fact identical. Alpha-decay is truly random and that there is no rhyme or reason why one atom decays and other does not. My point is that a scientific explanation of the phenomenon does not need to include a cause for a particular atom to decay and another to remain intact billions of years longer.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-15-2012 8:05 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-16-2012 12:51 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11845
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 144 of 220 (675728)
10-15-2012 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by ProtoTypical
10-15-2012 8:05 AM


Re: Explanations and more
My point is that when we examine the universe we see that 99.9999...% of all things have a cause. It seems a mighty leap to encounter something that we do not fully understand and come to the conclusion that there is no cause for it. It seems akin to invoking a god.

I remember modeling the paths of electrons with some computer software that used the Random Walk. It wasn't that we didn't understand how they moved and were just leaping to an uncaused explanation; modeling their beavior with uncaused random elements actually matched observation and worked well.

We're still presuming the randomness of Brownian Motion, but its not just something we've leaped at.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-15-2012 8:05 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(4)
Message 145 of 220 (675753)
10-15-2012 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by ProtoTypical
10-15-2012 8:05 AM


Re: Explanations and more
For the love of Dog man, don't ask me! I mean you might as well ask me why my wife reacts completely differently to identical situations on different days. I would be the first to agree that there is no apparent rhyme or reason for her reactions sometimes but deep down I am sure that there are some however circuitous the causal chain may be.

Ah, she has hidden variables. But there is experimental evidence to say that in quantum mechanics there aren't any hidden variables.

My point is that when we examine the universe we see that 99.9999...% of all things have a cause.

Well, yes and no.

One of the exercises they give to people starting out in quantum mechanics is to calculate the probability that if you run hard at a brick wall you'll pass through it rather than breaking your nose. This probability is small but non-zero, and there would be no cause of you succeeding rather than failing in running through the wall.

Because the probability is very very very small, you appear to live in a universe of cause and effect in which running at the wall causes you to break your nose.

Now, you say "when we examine the universe we see that 99.9999...% of all things have a cause". Well, a physicist might retort that that depends on which aspects of the universe you examine. Because you spend your time looking at objects visible to the naked eye, the probability of something very unusual like someone walking through a wall is so tiny that you appear to live in a world of deterministic cause and effect. If you spent your time observing quarks and electrons, you be saying "when we examine the universe we see that 99.9999...% of all things don't have a cause", and I'd be writing you a post explaining how when you sit down and do the math, it turns out that they pretty much do.

Now, the thing is this.

If we suppose that on the smallest scale the world is acausal and non-deterministic, then we can explain why the universe could be born and die a trillion times over before you could have any expectation of observing, with the naked eye, some event which seemed acausal and non-deterministic. And we can also explain quantum mechanics.

If instead we suppose that on the smallest scale the world is causal and deterministic, then we can explain why you would never ever observe, with the naked eye, some event which seemed acausal and non-deterministic. And we could not explain quantum mechanics.

The first theory, therefore, embraces all the observations we make, including observations we make using special apparatus such as particle accelerators and stuff like that. The second theory only embraces all the observations that you make in your everyday life. Now, there is nothing special about the things we observe from day to day and the scale that we observe things on that makes the second theory so preferable that it means that we can discount all the evidence supporting the first theory.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-15-2012 8:05 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2012 6:39 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded
 Message 150 by Son Goku, posted 10-16-2012 5:38 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded
 Message 153 by Stile, posted 10-16-2012 11:39 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(3)
Message 146 of 220 (675754)
10-15-2012 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-14-2012 8:36 PM


Let the nurse listen to Inadequate talk, Disentangled. The poor bugger is raving about the probabilities of the existence to exist.

There are three reasons you should not tell stupid lies about the content of my posts. The first is that doing this is dishonest. The second is that doing this is stupid. And the third is that doing this makes you look dishonest and stupid; and if the first two considerations don't sway you, which apparently they don't, then surely your immense overweening vanity would make you wish to avoid exposing yourself in public as a halfwitted liar.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-14-2012 8:36 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-16-2012 11:13 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10119
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 147 of 220 (675770)
10-15-2012 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Dr Adequate
10-14-2012 1:32 PM


Re: Explanations and more
Yes, I agree. We might then have a discussion about whether creating the non-zero probability constitutes a cause. But even if we decided it did not, the explanation would still be scientific.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2012 1:32 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5237
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 148 of 220 (675779)
10-15-2012 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Dr Adequate
10-15-2012 1:42 PM


Re: Explanations and more
That was a fucking good post. Thank you.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-15-2012 1:42 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1581 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 149 of 220 (675794)
10-16-2012 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by NoNukes
10-15-2012 10:01 AM


Re: Explanations and more
Don't use wrong assumptions, Nuke. Identical would be the two of them occupying the same location all the while. Pauli might not like this so your assumption is irrational. Different location means different relation to all the rest of the Universe. Hence different timing of decay.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by NoNukes, posted 10-15-2012 10:01 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Larni, posted 10-16-2012 8:04 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1082
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 7.0


Message 150 of 220 (675804)
10-16-2012 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Dr Adequate
10-15-2012 1:42 PM


Re: Explanations and more
Just to add to what Dr Adequate has said, there is strong experimental evidence that there is nothing going on underneath quantum mechanics, no "real" process of which the probabilities are only a description.

In fact you candesign simple experiments whose results are logically inconsistent with the idea of cause and effect and the idea of subatomic particles possessing properties. This is the essence of the Kochen-Specker theorem.

Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-15-2012 1:42 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-17-2012 9:05 AM Son Goku has responded

  
Prev1
...
89
10
1112
...
15Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017