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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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stile,to ringo writes: I can understand a rational reason. What I cannot understand is the difference between a rational and irrational location. Please clarify. What rational reason do you have to suggest that God may exist in another rational location?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
In this case yes. Its an analogy. Lets say the peanut butter jar represents a place in your brain. Lets say that youdetermine to a large degree what information, sensations, experiences and memories get filed in your conscious brain. The one labled God is empty. You concluded this. But in order to find God, I would have to bypass your (and Stiles) conclusion and look elsewhere myself. Reason being the compartment marked "God" is always going to be empty in your brain. By conclusion. Seeing as how the universe is not framed by your personal conclusions, one would have to bypass your brain full of empty and full containers and examine other brains and other spaces outside of brains. Such as peanut butter jars.(hint: God jars) One can look for Santa Claus in a Christmas jar, a North Pole jar, a chimney jar and so on. One would have a harder time with God since God by definition is never limited to a jar (a box) in the first place.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
OK, lets switch it up.
Let's say we have two tables. Table 1: Has a set of (invisible)keys on it. Table 2: Does not have a set of keys on it, there is nothing on it. Given that you *know* there are two possible answers, namely keys or no keys and that only one table has keys, can you even label which table is one and which table is two? To invoke the appeal to popularity, lets say that out of 6 billion people, 4 billion claim to know that invisible keys exist and yet also claim that it is a matter of subjective knowing and not objective knowing. What do you do with that problem? Lets say that they know because they have used such a set of invisible keys before to unlock some of their problems. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
This consideration would have to be considered for all tables in all time - as the possibility equally exists for all tables in all time. Substitute the word "places" for "tables. If God by definition is omnipresent, he is in all places at the same time...or none of them...depending on His whim. One key to finding Him is to get to know Who and What you are looking for. This involves some sort of special circumstance. God is not a box, a set of keys, a monster, or anything other than perhaps a person.(Jesus Christ) So its a bit like Waldo. Is Waldo in China? In fact its even deeper. As ringo suggests, the dark matter has not yet been perused. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Yes, but not totally. Take your irrational example:
I would suggest that in order to be rational in the first place, God must exist in your imagination at the very minimum. Perhaps some people have less of an imagination than others. Sara cant seem to even fill in ringos blanks. (so far)Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Sarah Bellum writes:
Many people believe in a deity. It's just not a rational thing.ringo writes: 1. We're not talking about belief.2. I'm still waiting for you to point out what's irrational about the idea of a deity. I could see the argument (from "ya'lls perspective) that anything without objective evidence is by definition irrational. From my perspective, God is rational because if the initial ways that I experienced His presence. Of course, critics could say that it was just my imagination. Belief in general is without objective evidence. To me this makes sense...if in fact people were meant to freely choose to accept or reject the impression. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
And yet some people claim to detect it.(Him) Just because they lack objective evidence is no reason to dismiss their claims. If they were simply psychotic they would have no valid arguments. Granted many of us don't but some arguments are worthy of further investigation. Why is it you refuse to fill in ringos blanks? Are you so cocksure of your position that you refuse to entertain philosophical ones which lack objective evidence? As long as I'm on this forum I wont allow the likes of Stile, jaer, and/or you to frame the basis for any faith based claim. You can run, but you can't hide.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Sara Bellum, replying to me and *not* ringo writes: I am the one who claimed that you all thought similar, but ringo has not yet admitted that belief is irrational, has he? I admitted that *you* believed it to be so. Resting means reflecting. Any good artist pauses to reflect on what they have made. Just because God has an infinitely fast super computer of a brain (according to some definitions of Him) does not mean that He is not allowed to reflect. He mirrors the perfection that He desires w obtain. Have any of us created something that is good? Which then further leads into the philosophical problem of evil, addressed in my other topic at the Open Theism thread. At least you agree that belief in a deity is irrational! I believe I've also shown that the idea of a deity itself (how, precisely, is having an idea of a deity different from believing in a deity?) is irrational, in earlier posts. And you haven't responded.But anyway, let's continue. One idea of a deity is an omnipotent, omniscient being that gives humans free will. That's a contradiction (irrational) in terms. We can flip a coin and say it's random - we have no control over whether it lands heads or tails. We can offer a dog two brands of dog food and see which one the dog chooses, saying the dog has the free will to choose. But an omnipotent, omniscient being flipping a coin knows what will come up. Such a being would also know what choice a dog, or cat, or human or anything would make, because a human is no more complex to an omnipotent, omniscient being than a flipped coin. By the way, how could a deity "rest" (like on the seventh day). Being omnipotent, the deity would consider a day of work no more tiring than a day of doing nothing, hence there would be no "resting". You get the idea: irrational!Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
How would one go about obtaining evidence that would satisfy you?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
AZPaul3 writes: So if you prayed to God, you would be willing to lay down your accusations against Her long enough to allow God to inform you of His(Her) presence? You must be willing to set aside any preconceived anger or irritation you would have should such a Deity prove real. You can always quibble with Him later. Since it’s such a small party she could whisk us away to another galaxy to another planet to another intelligent species where she promises to stop torturing them as well as all others in the universe. Then we could return to the party where the media is set up for a press conference where it would explain itself and its reasons and beg our forgiveness for the countless millennia of torture and evil it inflicted on the universe. And then pick up the tab. 1) Assume for the sheer sake of argument and pursuit of evidence that God as I present Him hypothetically could exist. If you cant go that far, you wont get evidence the way that you jokingly(semi seriously) demand it.2) Say the following prayer---to yourself and to any hypothetical Deity Whom Might be listening: GOD, Yahweh, Fred, or whatever I should call you: I first off admit that I feel silly and superfluous uttering this prayer but am doing so solely because my internet acquaintance says it will work. I am not so convinced, but I will for this moment open my mind,heart and soul to anything you seek to confirm or show me. I lay down my right to be critical of you personally, though I reserve the right to continue being an atheist cultural critic. Hey, I am giving you (You) my permission to inform me of your existence. At this point, honestly, I can and will do no more. For this prayer...this moment...I open my defenses. Have at me. 3) Say no more. Give this prayer a week. You need only sincerely say it once. 4) Tell me any conclusions not preconceived or expected after this week. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If God exists in our heart and is found by those who seek Him with all of their hearts, it would only make sense that He would never be found by someone merely looking for objective evidence on an electric meter or an instrument designed to detect energy. Moreover, if the ones who search have already personally concluded that they don't need God...that they don't need to commune with this alleged character....except on equal terms and the way *they* imagine God *should behave*...they wont find Him.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: You have to want/need Him. You wont simply stumble upon Him as one stumbles upon an unknown rock in a field. Let me try another argument.(this one is for Stile also) The idea that you have to believe to find Him is ridiculous. Recently there have been many tragedies and many people killed in high profile tragedies around the world. This is ongoing, but the news media heightens the fear and anxiety and so we become aware of these all-too-real nightmares that other people experience. In times such as these, life often no longer makes sense. it becomes irrational. Trust itself becomes irrational. Many people turn to God. Whether God actually exists or whether God is a panacea in their mind, they equate belief in God with an unwaverable trust---out of desperation. They dont bother to examine whether or not God is good, or rational, or even proveable. They turn to prayers and they often find comfort. quote: Critics claim that God should rationally be able to be found by anyone and everyone should He exist. But consider in context:
quote:If we are searching for this particular God found in these scriptures, it is evident that not just anyone can saunter into the holy of holies and have a conversation. The idea that everyone has an equal chance(opportunity) at finding God is not scriptural. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: My point that I am attempting to get Stile to see is that God is not simply like any other thing that one looks for. If you change the silly use of the word 'heart' to 'mind', you have it right and it sounds rather different doesn't it? Stile will protest and ask why we should think any differently about God than about anything else we look for. Note that he believes that he can find anything I can find without needing God to do so and that his mind can be as content as my mind except that his mind does not incorporate God while I believe that mine does. But how would we ever measure the difference? Getting back to victims of tragedies who seek God out of desperation and find an inner comfort:
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The thing is... people have traditionally thought of God as "outside this framework" for thousands of years. I see your point. I will argue that God by definition simply can't be "placed" anywhere. Not sure how to argue this...I simply feel it to be true. Perhaps we should attempt to define God as best as we can. Only if we can define Him can we "place Him" anywhere.They don't want to admit the obvious, unavoidable conclusion when God is placed "within" the framework of "how we know things in a modern sense." Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
stile writes: Perhaps that God is more likely to exist if you imagine that He will be actually useful and necessary in your life should you find Him. You have already admitted that you believe He is unnecessary but that you would be "open to evidence." I think you have already made your conclusion and use this whole argument as a logical justification for you not needing Him in the first place. What is the link between imagination and God existing behind dark matter? Add By Edit: I suppose that this is true for me as well. If jars idea of God was the reality rather than my own idea, I likely would prefer that such a God never be found nor that such a God actually be the real One. Edited by Thugpreacha, : upon reflectionChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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