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Author Topic:   My Beliefs- GDR
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 15 of 1324 (698390)
05-06-2013 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
05-04-2013 7:13 PM


Firstly I believe in an intelligent first cause. I have been accused of arguing from a position of incredulity but I don’t regard that as a fair criticism. I can make the same argument to an atheist in that they can’t believe that there is a higher intelligence responsible for our existence. I believe that an intelligent first cause is far more plausible than a non-intelligent first cause.
When we look take a long look at our world and consider the complexity of a single cell then I find it very difficult to believe that that cell could be formed by the chance combination of particles that by chance came together to form atoms and molecules. It is my belief that my position is the more plausible of the two.
My advice is . . . quit digging. You seem to be deepening your hole.
In order to justify your argument from incredulity you double down with a tu quoque fallacy, and it isn't even an accurate one.
Also, it isn't that an atheist can't believe there is a god. We can believe there is a god, we just need to see the evidence first.
Finally, you have not shown how one is more probable than the other. I understand that these are beliefs, but to assign a probability to them tries to push your beliefs into the realm of statistics where they just don't belong. Perhaps you could say that you personally find the theistic/deistic argument more compelling both spiritually and emotionally.
Also we are able to distinguish right from wrong. We have a sense of morality that IMHO goes beyond personal survival which indicates to me an on-going interest.
Why would this require a deity?
Thirdly, I am a Christian. My Christianity essentially has one absolute, and without that one absolute I would not be a Christian. The Christian faith grew from the belief in the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Paul tells us that if that isn’t true then our faith is in vain and we are, in his words, to be pitied. I think that he is correct. By resurrection I mean that Jesus died on the cross and was later resurrected into a new bodily form that was like, but at the same time different, than his pre-crucifixion body. It is my belief that God will at the end of time as we know it, resurrect all of creation in the renewal of all things, and (for lack of a better term), the resurrected Jesus was/is the prototype for our own resurrection.
I have read a number of books and listened to debates by Biblical scholars and others arguing both sides of the question of the truth of the resurrection. There are a lot of very bright and knowledgeable people on both sides of the issue but I find the argument for the resurrection far more compelling than the argument against. One of the simplest arguments is that if the resurrection story is either fabricated or mistaken there is no good reason for the movement to grow as strongly and quickly as it did. The argument against the resurrection is the almost solely the rejection of the possibility of it happening at all, as in every other case if someone died, other than for resuscitation, they have stayed dead. I find that position a little odd for anyone who believes in an intelligent first cause, they must believe that a miracle is possible as one would be required for God to get life started in the first place.
So you can't accept a naturalistic origin of life or first cause even though we have some potential pathways, but your incredulity doesn't seem to stop you from believing that a deity came down in the flesh and rose from the dead.
Why incredulous of one, but not the other?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GDR, posted 05-04-2013 7:13 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 05-06-2013 11:03 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 76 of 1324 (698881)
05-10-2013 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by GDR
05-06-2013 11:03 PM


Either there is an intelligent first cause or there isn’t. I simply made the statement that I believe that there is and I gave a brief explanation of one of the reasons for that.
It was an argument from incredulity, and you tried to lessen the impact of the fallacy on your argument by trying to claim that "atheists do it too" (i.e. tu quoque fallacy). It was two fallacies for the price of one.
The Gospels are evidence.
The Gospels are the claim. What we mean by evidence is objective evidence that demonstrates the Gospels are true.
The balanced universe is evidence, one complex living cell is evidence, the fact that we can think about these things is evidence etc.
Evidence of what?
In order to have evidence you need something that is falsifiable and testable. From what I have seen, what you have are unfalsifiable dogmatic beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 05-06-2013 11:03 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by GDR, posted 05-10-2013 1:56 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 81 of 1324 (698924)
05-10-2013 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by GDR
05-10-2013 1:56 PM


Atheists keep bringing up Occam’s Razor with the claim that the simplest answer is going to be the right one and that adding a god(s) to the equation violates that principle. In other words the idea of a god(s) is too incredulous to be believed.
That's not it at all. There is simply no reason to include gods in our explanations to begin with since there is no evidence for them. That is the whole point.
I agree that my beliefs are unfalsifiable but I don’t see that my beliefs are any more dogmatic than yours.
And once again we are faced with the tu quoque fallacy.
What do you think my beliefs are, and why do you think they are dogmatic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by GDR, posted 05-10-2013 1:56 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by GDR, posted 05-11-2013 2:42 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 108 of 1324 (699030)
05-13-2013 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by GDR
05-11-2013 2:42 AM


The writers of the Gospels and for that matter the epistles make specific claims. That is evidence and we subjectively believe or reject their claims.
Claims and evidence are two different things.
The fact that we exist or even that this universe exists is objective evidence that something happened for us to exist, and we can subjectively choose what to believe about the how and why of what that something is.
When you make these subjective choices it is not based on evidence. There is simply no reason to include any deities in any explanation other than personal, subjective needs that there be a deity. That's it.
That's what you said before and I don't agree that it is. I asked for you to explain how it qualifies as such and you just repeat your assertion.
"Tu quoque" is latin for "you, too". That is exactly what you are doing in this quote:
"I agree that my beliefs are unfalsifiable but I don’t see that my beliefs are any more dogmatic than yours."--GDR
You are arguing that while your beliefs may be unfalsifiable it is negated by the fact that my beliefs are dogmatic as well (even though you didn't actually spell out what my dogmatic beliefs are). It is a classic tu quoque fallacy.
Well obviously you know your beliefs better than I do but, as I understand your views you seem to reject the notion of God, while allowing for the unlikely possibility that He actually exists.
That sounds like the very opposite of dogmatic. I do not believe in the gods that men have made claims about, but like you say I still leave the possibility open.
I on the other hand reject the idea that our existence could be the result of non-intelligent origins although I do allow for the unlikely possibility of that actually being the case.
From what I have seen, your belief that God created us precedes any consideration of evidence. This differs from my approach where conclusions are only drawn after evidence is presented.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by GDR, posted 05-11-2013 2:42 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by GDR, posted 05-14-2013 12:14 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 118 of 1324 (699083)
05-14-2013 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by GDR
05-14-2013 12:14 AM


From a scientific point of view yes,
No, from a rational point of view.
It has nothing to do with personal needs. I believe it to be the truth regardless of any needs I might have.
Then what does it have to do with? Why propose that a deity exists to begin with?
The only point is that we are dealing with something for which there is no falsifiable answer.
What is that something?
I don't agree with that.
Then describe how you reached the conclusion that God exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by GDR, posted 05-14-2013 12:14 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by GDR, posted 05-15-2013 1:32 PM Taq has not replied

  
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